7 ms·

That's work from home brilliantly summarized, very true. However, I have my doubts about productivity in smaller teams and startups. Being in the same space ph

by mojuba 5y ago

That's work from home brilliantly summarized, very true. However, I have my doubts about productivity in smaller teams and startups. Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things. In small teams and esp. at early stage startups your whole day is a meeting where things are discussed and resolved spontaneously. Sometimes it is important to have an environment where information is exchanged dynamically and in an unordered fashion, as opposed to structured meetings, schedules and planning that become necessary in fully remote teams. Then there's the social part. At least don't forget to do regular meetups in real life if you can. Honestly, I'm very divided over this. Is there a way to have the spontaneity and dynamism of working in small teams in real life, and have the comfort and freedom of working from home?

thiht 5y ago
You can have that remotely. In my team we (8 people) spend our whole day on a visio conference room. We’re mainly idle but we use it to ask for help, discuss decisions informally, vent, talk about whatever(games, movies, etc.), all of that exactly the same as in the open space, but better because we can still disconnect if we need to focus. If we need a real meeting or need to talk with a specific subject, we just go to another conference room, in the same way we’d use a meeting room in the office. The thing though is that we have a dedicated device for the visio. For now it’s a Cisco DX but it could work with an iPad for example.
- iambateman 5y ago
  Are you not self conscious, constantly? The massive difference between what you describe and sitting in person is body noise. A cough in an office is normal while a cough in a video chat gets everyone’s attention. I feel like it would be very draining but it sounds like you’re enjoying it?
  - NortySpock 5y ago
    I usually use Push-To-Talk mode on most video calls when I can. I'm not perfect about it, but I do manage to mute probably 90% of throat-clearing noises or 75% of my typing.
  - thiht 5y ago
    We just mute ourselves when we’re not talking an close the camera lid if we’re not comfortable with it. I used to be self conscious about it, but I think the company culture plays a role. We had these devices and this behavior way before COVID because our teams were already remote (5 people in a city in France, 2 in another, 2 in Tunisia…), this is the company way of keeping remote people close to one another. The whole company works like this because all the teas are distributed. I went from not caring about it to loving it, and if I switched company I would do my best to advocate for such a system.
dsign 5y ago
> Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things. In small teams and esp. at early stage startups your whole day is a meeting where things are discussed and resolved spontaneously. Who's going to write the fine-detail code if they whole day is a meeting? It may change from case to case, but for some small teams the biggest challenge is to produce something so good that it out-competes the product of teams significantly larger. A brilliant idea gets you 5% of the way, the rest is getting busy with very boring details and corner cases. My small teams and startup experience: none of that boring work gets done as soon as there are two people together. Simply put, social interaction is way nicer than boring work. This is not just technical development work, but even commercial research. I know this is a thought crime, but I sometimes feel like it would be a good idea to lock the socialite sales person in a room with no human contact whatsoever until they finish that Excel spreadsheet.
- metb 5y ago
  > Who's going to write the fine-detail code if they whole day is a meeting? Reminds me of the time I worked at an early stage startup. I used to take official vacation time, and disappear from company collaboration tools to get real work done.
  - obedm 5y ago
    I find this incredibly sad for many reasons. Taking time off to work for the company that doesn't let you work for them during normal work hours. The irony is so strong but I understand the sentiment and why you'd do it
    - 8note 5y ago
      Doesn't let you do the work that you want to do* The thinking and talking is still work
  - christophilus 5y ago
    I used to take sick days for that reason when I worked in an open office space. Then, I realized how dumb that was and quit that job.
dyadic 5y ago
I think that small teams with high throughput communication can work in place and remote. In place the high communication is there by default where the default remote position would probably be lower communication / more isolation. It doesn't have to be this way of course, but it would require the remote high communication model to be put into action intentionally. It's worth remembering that this high communication method isn't really scalable too, and that larger teams trying to follow it will find themselves dedicating a larger % of their time to noise. It would take some intentional actions to move away from it as the team grows.
- mojuba 5y ago
  > this high communication method isn't really scalable too True, from what I've seen the threshold lies somewhere at 10-12 people, assuming a mixed team engineering + marketing + etc. But while you are small you can take advantage, remove all formalities and be in-place as much as possible. You can move so much faster, having trivial respect and ethics in mind, as in don't talk loudly about sales just next to an engineer who seems to be working on something. And vice versa.
teekert 5y ago
I'm also divided, and I still go to office because of that (at the moment we can sort of choose it ourselves), 1 or 2 days a week. Sometimes 0. I enjoy the time in the office, I see who is there, try to gather a big group for a good lunch and talk as much as I can. At home I focus on coding, document writing etc. I'm all for letting teams hash it out among themselves. One argument that I think fails in the long run is that creativity drops. Maybe it does, in the short term, but if people are happier at home, and more companies will support it, new ways of being creative or even together will be found. I wouldn't worry so much about losing the "classic, old" way creativity worked before, there is so much to be gained and so much yet to be learned. Give it some time, embrace it, see where it takes us. One example of growing creativity for me has been: One colleague in our team is from the US, he's the only one. Pre-Covid he'd be on a speaker in our meeting room, no cam on. Since Covid he has his cam on, same as everyone else. We engage much more in small talk, recently we got a tour of his house and garden via webcam. What a nice guy! We wrote some patents together now too. Even though we are 8 hours flying away from each other. The talent pool for teams just grows much bigger.
goodpoint 5y ago
> Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things ...and also makes a lot of people unable to focus.
Kaze404 5y ago
> Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things. In small teams and esp. at early stage startups your whole day is a meeting where things are discussed and resolved spontaneously. I do not understand how people can get work done in an environment like this. I've had similar experiences and "the whole day is a meeting" only served me for unnecessary interruptions, useless workplace banter and unsatisfactory results.
- iambateman 5y ago
  I do think some work circumstances can benefit from periods of nearness. Programming is not one of them. ;)
- filesystem 5y ago
  People who tilt towards extrovert thrive in an environment like this.
coolaliasbro 5y ago
In my experience, reasons like "spontaneity" and "dynamism" are used to cast lack of vision, poor planning and management, and amateurish execution in a positive light. YMMV.
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  In my experience, reasons like "freedom to work from bed" and "ability to do laundry" are used to cast anti-social behavior in a positive light.
catherinezng 5y ago
The solution to this is gather.town
slumdev 5y ago
Communication points are a bottleneck. Smaller teams help, but the ideal team size for accomplishing a task is 1. Putting engineers in a war room or open office is only going to irritate the ones who want to spend their time doing deep work. And those are usually the better ones.
edgyquant 5y ago
I work remote at an early stage startup, I’m not sure you’re right. It might be faster to work together but only by the amount of time it takes to type. We’re on slack talking all day and have video meeting when needed. We work fast as it is so I’m not sure we’d gain much by being in person (other than social stimulation.)
- jnwatson 5y ago
  I'm in the same boat with the addition of a Mumble server. We're always a keypress away from talking to each other.
- ddek 5y ago
  I work on site in an early stage startup, and I think it's about commitment to a communication model. We have a 2x2 grid. On the top we have 'in person' and 'remote'. Down the side we have 'synchronous' and 'asynchronous'. I've worked in companies trying all five (yes) of these combinations. This is my experience. - in person, synchronous: everything happens in meetings. Business likes the certainty of meetings, engineering doesn't like the disruption. With the right accommodations, most people are content. - in person, asynchronous: everyone's in the office, and no-one knows why. The CEO offers vague maritime platitudes. - remote, synchronous: "can you go on mute" now causes a company-wide gag reflex. Everyone's happy because they can apply for new jobs without being noticed. (Seriously, the company I worked in that did this had absurd turnover, for this reason.) - remote, asynchronous: engineers contribute to discussion when they have time. Hotshot managers want there ideas validated now, though. Despite this contention, most people are happy. - hybrid: A cabal has formed in the office. Finally, it formalizes when a Jira account named 'Office' appears. When a remote worker creates an issue, the cabal convenes to decide a response. There is no room for negotiation. Gradually, the remote staff evaporate. Only the hive mind remains.
ithkuil 5y ago
the best of both worlds would be to work remotely most of the time and have (frequent?) sprints where you get to know your coworkers and also engage in this kind of high bandwidth settings.
novok 5y ago
You can reproduce it somewhat with an always open mic & video chat on all sides. I've done it once, it was remarkably effective. Many people who like remote work although also do not like something like that arrangement although.
deevolution 5y ago
Look at the entire crypto space. $1.5T+ of value and growing and the vast majority of it is built remotely, sometimes anonymously, and it's one of the most free and spontaneous industries.

by mojuba 5y ago

thiht 5y ago

You can have that remotely. In my team we (8 people) spend our whole day on a visio conference room. We’re mainly idle but we use it to ask for help, discuss decisions informally, vent, talk about whatever(games, movies, etc.), all of that exactly the same as in the open space, but better because we can still disconnect if we need to focus. If we need a real meeting or need to talk with a specific subject, we just go to another conference room, in the same way we’d use a meeting room in the office. The thing though is that we have a dedicated device for the visio. For now it’s a Cisco DX but it could work with an iPad for example.

iambateman 5y ago
Are you not self conscious, constantly? The massive difference between what you describe and sitting in person is body noise. A cough in an office is normal while a cough in a video chat gets everyone’s attention. I feel like it would be very draining but it sounds like you’re enjoying it?
- NortySpock 5y ago
  I usually use Push-To-Talk mode on most video calls when I can. I'm not perfect about it, but I do manage to mute probably 90% of throat-clearing noises or 75% of my typing.
- thiht 5y ago
  We just mute ourselves when we’re not talking an close the camera lid if we’re not comfortable with it. I used to be self conscious about it, but I think the company culture plays a role. We had these devices and this behavior way before COVID because our teams were already remote (5 people in a city in France, 2 in another, 2 in Tunisia…), this is the company way of keeping remote people close to one another. The whole company works like this because all the teas are distributed. I went from not caring about it to loving it, and if I switched company I would do my best to advocate for such a system.

dsign 5y ago

> Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things. In small teams and esp. at early stage startups your whole day is a meeting where things are discussed and resolved spontaneously. Who's going to write the fine-detail code if they whole day is a meeting? It may change from case to case, but for some small teams the biggest challenge is to produce something so good that it out-competes the product of teams significantly larger. A brilliant idea gets you 5% of the way, the rest is getting busy with very boring details and corner cases. My small teams and startup experience: none of that boring work gets done as soon as there are two people together. Simply put, social interaction is way nicer than boring work. This is not just technical development work, but even commercial research. I know this is a thought crime, but I sometimes feel like it would be a good idea to lock the socialite sales person in a room with no human contact whatsoever until they finish that Excel spreadsheet.

metb 5y ago
> Who's going to write the fine-detail code if they whole day is a meeting? Reminds me of the time I worked at an early stage startup. I used to take official vacation time, and disappear from company collaboration tools to get real work done.
- obedm 5y ago
  I find this incredibly sad for many reasons. Taking time off to work for the company that doesn't let you work for them during normal work hours. The irony is so strong but I understand the sentiment and why you'd do it
  - 8note 5y ago
    Doesn't let you do the work that you want to do* The thinking and talking is still work
- christophilus 5y ago
  I used to take sick days for that reason when I worked in an open office space. Then, I realized how dumb that was and quit that job.

dyadic 5y ago

I think that small teams with high throughput communication can work in place and remote. In place the high communication is there by default where the default remote position would probably be lower communication / more isolation. It doesn't have to be this way of course, but it would require the remote high communication model to be put into action intentionally. It's worth remembering that this high communication method isn't really scalable too, and that larger teams trying to follow it will find themselves dedicating a larger % of their time to noise. It would take some intentional actions to move away from it as the team grows.

mojuba 5y ago
> this high communication method isn't really scalable too True, from what I've seen the threshold lies somewhere at 10-12 people, assuming a mixed team engineering + marketing + etc. But while you are small you can take advantage, remove all formalities and be in-place as much as possible. You can move so much faster, having trivial respect and ethics in mind, as in don't talk loudly about sales just next to an engineer who seems to be working on something. And vice versa.

teekert 5y ago

I'm also divided, and I still go to office because of that (at the moment we can sort of choose it ourselves), 1 or 2 days a week. Sometimes 0. I enjoy the time in the office, I see who is there, try to gather a big group for a good lunch and talk as much as I can. At home I focus on coding, document writing etc. I'm all for letting teams hash it out among themselves. One argument that I think fails in the long run is that creativity drops. Maybe it does, in the short term, but if people are happier at home, and more companies will support it, new ways of being creative or even together will be found. I wouldn't worry so much about losing the "classic, old" way creativity worked before, there is so much to be gained and so much yet to be learned. Give it some time, embrace it, see where it takes us. One example of growing creativity for me has been: One colleague in our team is from the US, he's the only one. Pre-Covid he'd be on a speaker in our meeting room, no cam on. Since Covid he has his cam on, same as everyone else. We engage much more in small talk, recently we got a tour of his house and garden via webcam. What a nice guy! We wrote some patents together now too. Even though we are 8 hours flying away from each other. The talent pool for teams just grows much bigger.

goodpoint 5y ago

> Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things ...and also makes a lot of people unable to focus.

Kaze404 5y ago

> Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things. In small teams and esp. at early stage startups your whole day is a meeting where things are discussed and resolved spontaneously. I do not understand how people can get work done in an environment like this. I've had similar experiences and "the whole day is a meeting" only served me for unnecessary interruptions, useless workplace banter and unsatisfactory results.

iambateman 5y ago
I do think some work circumstances can benefit from periods of nearness. Programming is not one of them. ;)
filesystem 5y ago
People who tilt towards extrovert thrive in an environment like this.

coolaliasbro 5y ago

In my experience, reasons like "spontaneity" and "dynamism" are used to cast lack of vision, poor planning and management, and amateurish execution in a positive light. YMMV.

long_time_gone 5y ago
In my experience, reasons like "freedom to work from bed" and "ability to do laundry" are used to cast anti-social behavior in a positive light.

catherinezng 5y ago

The solution to this is gather.town

slumdev 5y ago

Communication points are a bottleneck. Smaller teams help, but the ideal team size for accomplishing a task is 1. Putting engineers in a war room or open office is only going to irritate the ones who want to spend their time doing deep work. And those are usually the better ones.

edgyquant 5y ago

I work remote at an early stage startup, I’m not sure you’re right. It might be faster to work together but only by the amount of time it takes to type. We’re on slack talking all day and have video meeting when needed. We work fast as it is so I’m not sure we’d gain much by being in person (other than social stimulation.)

jnwatson 5y ago
I'm in the same boat with the addition of a Mumble server. We're always a keypress away from talking to each other.
ddek 5y ago
I work on site in an early stage startup, and I think it's about commitment to a communication model. We have a 2x2 grid. On the top we have 'in person' and 'remote'. Down the side we have 'synchronous' and 'asynchronous'. I've worked in companies trying all five (yes) of these combinations. This is my experience. - in person, synchronous: everything happens in meetings. Business likes the certainty of meetings, engineering doesn't like the disruption. With the right accommodations, most people are content. - in person, asynchronous: everyone's in the office, and no-one knows why. The CEO offers vague maritime platitudes. - remote, synchronous: "can you go on mute" now causes a company-wide gag reflex. Everyone's happy because they can apply for new jobs without being noticed. (Seriously, the company I worked in that did this had absurd turnover, for this reason.) - remote, asynchronous: engineers contribute to discussion when they have time. Hotshot managers want there ideas validated now, though. Despite this contention, most people are happy. - hybrid: A cabal has formed in the office. Finally, it formalizes when a Jira account named 'Office' appears. When a remote worker creates an issue, the cabal convenes to decide a response. There is no room for negotiation. Gradually, the remote staff evaporate. Only the hive mind remains.

ithkuil 5y ago

the best of both worlds would be to work remotely most of the time and have (frequent?) sprints where you get to know your coworkers and also engage in this kind of high bandwidth settings.

novok 5y ago

You can reproduce it somewhat with an always open mic & video chat on all sides. I've done it once, it was remarkably effective. Many people who like remote work although also do not like something like that arrangement although.

deevolution 5y ago

Look at the entire crypto space. $1.5T+ of value and growing and the vast majority of it is built remotely, sometimes anonymously, and it's one of the most free and spontaneous industries.