5 ms·

Arc One – Electric Boat

32 points by ahnick 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
The positioning understates the value I think. That is, electrification is a bigger step then "the next generation", it's really a radical break.
TheDudeMan 5y ago
Cost?
- dragonstyle 5y ago
  $300,000 (!)
- dtgriscom 5y ago
  $300,000. Cheap at half the price.
Zenst 5y ago
Electric boats without that petrol motor noise would be welcome in many area's. Though what is needed is an easy drop-in solution for existing boats. That's the breaker and charging.
- chrisdalke 5y ago
  Unfortunately that's probably not going to happen anytime soon -- These electric boat startups are the real deal, but they all tend to rely on a lightweight hull to get ahead of the power density issues. Most composite boat hulls are way too heavy to stick an electric motor in and expect reasonable performance.
yeldarb 5y ago
What are you supposed to _do_ with it? Is it for water-skiing/wakeboarding? Tubing? Just cruising? What market segment is it trying to play in? I don't think I've ever really seen a 24 foot closed-bow boat.
- King-Aaron 5y ago
  Recreational fishing
  - mfer 5y ago
    That’s a poor layout for fishing. Fishing boats will be on rough water and need to be a bigger boat setup for down rigging and other stuff or be on a smaller body of water where you need access to to all edges easily and have a second trolling motor. This’s is not for fishing
    - King-Aaron 5y ago
      Dang, better sell my boat then
- mfer 5y ago
  I was thinking the same thing. People get boats for fishing, wake boarding, etc. Boats are designed and marketed around this purposes. I don’t see the market for this at that size. Am I missing something? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a boat at that size that’s not a bowrider. This feels like it’s designed and marketed for electric vehicle lovers rather than boat users
  - abrokenpipe 5y ago
    Exactly, I don't see how this can compete with a nautique for wakeboarding or riva for cruising, and it's definitley not a fishing boat. This seems like a boat designed by people who don't get boating, for an audience that doesn't really care about boats.
- john_moscow 5y ago
  >What market segment is it trying to play in? Unsophisticated investors.
CarVac 5y ago
Sounds like a pile of buzzwords. Why does a boat need "over-the-air updates"?
- rco8786 5y ago
  Same reasons a car does, presumably? Better battery efficiency as software gets smarter. Auto-driving/docking features that are developed after you buy. Fart noises on the dashboard. Etc.
mawise 5y ago
I stopped reading at "over the air updates".
elefanten 5y ago
Are the electronics and the... huge freaking batteries a problem in an environment composed entirely of water? Honest question.
- DamnYuppie 5y ago
  No not all. Boats have been using large batteries for quite some time. Also marine electronic systems are well known and proven.
sandworm101 5y ago
No more winterization? It is still a boat. It still must be winterized. And why did they decide on an inboard motor? That is very retro. You dont see any modern boats in this size doing that. Look at how awkward that prop is. Have fun getting it on and off the trailer. And where is the kicker motor? Electric or not, nobody puts to sea without an independant backup. Electrification is cool, but dont make so many changes at once. I dont need nor want a new metal or carbon hull. Fiberglass hulls are perfectly good. Give me batteries and a standard electric outboard I can mount on my current boat. And i just dont like the idea of mixing a conductive hull, salt water, and a small tesla's worth of battery power. I dont know how it will short but i know i dont want to be anywhere near it when it does. Fiberglass please.
- mperham 5y ago
  “Small Tesla”, nowhere close, far more. The boat has 200 kW, Model Y has 75!
- khazhoux 5y ago
  > Electrification is cool, but dont make so many changes at once. Hmm, I'm reminded on how Google Wave had a launch-date feature of custom scroll bars. Because that was somehow important.
- kylecordes 5y ago
  Lots of recreational boats (probably most small ones, aside from fishing boats with a trolling motor) used on lakes have no backup motor. If things break, you hopefully find someone to tow you.
chrisdalke 5y ago
Not a huge amount of information to comment on (They don't even show the fully-loaded weight of the boat which is probably the most important factor), but the focus on a lightweight hull seems like the right path and is similar to other startups in this field. Electrification of boats is uniquely challenging because it's a delicately balanced optimization problem -- You need to keep the boat up on plane to get a reasonable range and compete in the same class as other recreational motorboats. Getting on plane requires a high peak power output, but that in turn requires a heavier battery pack, making it harder to get up to speed... Battery energy density is not quite at the point where you can just stick a battery and electric motor in an existing boat hull and expect it to perform, so the theme of all these companies is using a custom lightweight hull or hydrofoil to reduce drag/weight enough to avoid the energy density problem. Another interesting startup is Candela (https://candela.com/ https://candela.com/) who is taking on the problem from a similar angle; they use hydrofoils and a complex controls system to keep the hull foiling which is very low drag. That said, I'm not sure Arc has done their research on the market fit for aluminum hulls. Based on their concepts it will take a lot of work to convince the recreational boating scene to buy a $300k aluminum boat with an inboard motor; typically aluminum hulls are used for fishing and shallow waters, and in those use cases an inboard doesn't make sense -- it might be better equipped in that case with a jet drive but would hit power issues there.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Getting on plane requires a high peak power output Could a capacitor bank be used to deliver a burst of power to plane out? Or does the weight and volume of capacitors still exceed what's practical? Also seems like it wouldn't work for wakeboarding, where the goal is to generate a big, inefficient wake all the time.
  - chrisdalke 5y ago
    The power required to plane in a boat looks a bit like a normal curve -- Power consumption scales upwards exponentially with speed until you either 1) Get going fast enough to hydroplane and reach a high efficiency regime 2) Hit the peak power of the drivetrain and fail to accelerate further A capacitor bank wouldn't really help here, since that power has to come from somewhere. The issue isn't that the batteries aren't capable of outputting that peak power -- Even small battery systems are more than capable of outputting the 50kw+ it might take to get on plane. The real issue is that doing that repeatedly requires you to scale up your battery capacity and weight, which is a positive feedback loop. Boats are not just getting on/off plane once on a tank of gas, they're doing it 10-20 times depending on driving conditions, surroundings, no wake zones. This might happen 100s of times for watersports like wakeboarding. So a big part of the equation is finding a way to save weight elsewhere that can then be used to insert more batteries.
Jerry2 5y ago
>24ft long >$300k That makes it $2.5k/ft! For a recreational, non-competition, Class I boat, that's absolutely incredible to me.
riffic 5y ago
batteries in the bilge, what could go wrong?
cma 5y ago
Consumer sporting boats have too little uilization and no meaningful regen potential to waste batteries on them that could go into cars.
- cma 5y ago
  By utilization I just mean percent of time in use (mostly only see on weekends), not making judgment on "utility" vs leisure. It could make sense in a rental scenario or ski instructor, etc.
elil17 5y ago
Every time they write “team of aerospace engineers” I read “we didn’t bother hiring a naval architect because we think we’re smart enough to do this without knowing anything about boats.”
- xkcd-sucks 5y ago
  Or mechanical engineers who know statics and fluid dynamics sell themselves as "aerospace" because it's sexier/higher salary
- JimTheMan 5y ago
  More like, we train a huge amount of aerospace engineers every year but there's actually not a lot of aerospace work relative to the volume of graduates, so they have to go find other things to do. And seeing as there are many similarities with a mechanical engineering degree, what they can do is quite broad. Also my understanding is that there are very people in the US who are naval architects.
polartx 5y ago
At least they didn’t find a way to squeeze “3D printing” into pitch or production. I’m so tired of seeing “3D print” as a buzzword, or to replace older/better construction practices.
ravedave5 5y ago
This is silly over priced. Here's ones built using standard hulls for literally 1/10th of the price - https://plugboats.com/pure-watercraft-adds-3-new-electric-boat-packages/ https://plugboats.com/pure-watercraft-adds-3-new-electric-bo...
- RandallBrown 5y ago
  It might be, but those boats are not in the same class as the Arc Boat.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Well, sure. They actually exist.
worldsayshi 5y ago
Or just get a sailing boat
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dtgriscom 5y ago
No videos anywhere that I can find; you'd think that something that'll be shipped by the end of the year has some prototypes tooling around. That said, I'd love to have an almost-silent boat to wander around in.
ur-whale 5y ago
This is IMO way cooler (it's got foils): https://candela.com/ https://candela.com/
khazhoux 5y ago
$300,000 Looks neat, but insane price given that the even the first-year Tesla S's were in the $50-70K range.
- gnabgib 5y ago
  Feels like you're cherry picking since the 2006 Tesla's were $80-120K [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generati...] Early adopter wise this isn't so outrageous?
arecurrence 5y ago
If you found this cool, take a look at Silent Yachts https://www.silent-yachts.com https://www.silent-yachts.com . They have already delivered several practical all electric yachts that cross oceans.
boatsector 5y ago
How exactly are you supposed to drop anchor with that design? Or even tie it? There seems to be no access to the bow whatsoever ?!
megablast 5y ago
The future is the past. The future is a sailboat with no carbon pollution.
breck 5y ago
In Hawai'i I see hydrofoils more and more. The way they move looks to me like there's a significant (2x+) advantage in efficiency (and smoother ride). So I'd expect "The Next Generation of Boats" to have a hydro foil. I'm a complete layman though, so could be wrong. Can anyone answer whether modern hydrofoils are a game changer?

32 points by ahnick 5y ago

The positioning understates the value I think. That is, electrification is a bigger step then "the next generation", it's really a radical break.

TheDudeMan 5y ago

Cost?

dragonstyle 5y ago
$300,000 (!)
dtgriscom 5y ago
$300,000. Cheap at half the price.

Zenst 5y ago

Electric boats without that petrol motor noise would be welcome in many area's. Though what is needed is an easy drop-in solution for existing boats. That's the breaker and charging.

chrisdalke 5y ago
Unfortunately that's probably not going to happen anytime soon -- These electric boat startups are the real deal, but they all tend to rely on a lightweight hull to get ahead of the power density issues. Most composite boat hulls are way too heavy to stick an electric motor in and expect reasonable performance.

yeldarb 5y ago

What are you supposed to _do_ with it? Is it for water-skiing/wakeboarding? Tubing? Just cruising? What market segment is it trying to play in? I don't think I've ever really seen a 24 foot closed-bow boat.

King-Aaron 5y ago
Recreational fishing
- mfer 5y ago
  That’s a poor layout for fishing. Fishing boats will be on rough water and need to be a bigger boat setup for down rigging and other stuff or be on a smaller body of water where you need access to to all edges easily and have a second trolling motor. This’s is not for fishing
  - King-Aaron 5y ago
    Dang, better sell my boat then
mfer 5y ago
I was thinking the same thing. People get boats for fishing, wake boarding, etc. Boats are designed and marketed around this purposes. I don’t see the market for this at that size. Am I missing something? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a boat at that size that’s not a bowrider. This feels like it’s designed and marketed for electric vehicle lovers rather than boat users
- abrokenpipe 5y ago
  Exactly, I don't see how this can compete with a nautique for wakeboarding or riva for cruising, and it's definitley not a fishing boat. This seems like a boat designed by people who don't get boating, for an audience that doesn't really care about boats.
john_moscow 5y ago
>What market segment is it trying to play in? Unsophisticated investors.

CarVac 5y ago

Sounds like a pile of buzzwords. Why does a boat need "over-the-air updates"?

rco8786 5y ago
Same reasons a car does, presumably? Better battery efficiency as software gets smarter. Auto-driving/docking features that are developed after you buy. Fart noises on the dashboard. Etc.

mawise 5y ago

I stopped reading at "over the air updates".

elefanten 5y ago

Are the electronics and the... huge freaking batteries a problem in an environment composed entirely of water? Honest question.

DamnYuppie 5y ago
No not all. Boats have been using large batteries for quite some time. Also marine electronic systems are well known and proven.

sandworm101 5y ago

No more winterization? It is still a boat. It still must be winterized. And why did they decide on an inboard motor? That is very retro. You dont see any modern boats in this size doing that. Look at how awkward that prop is. Have fun getting it on and off the trailer. And where is the kicker motor? Electric or not, nobody puts to sea without an independant backup. Electrification is cool, but dont make so many changes at once. I dont need nor want a new metal or carbon hull. Fiberglass hulls are perfectly good. Give me batteries and a standard electric outboard I can mount on my current boat. And i just dont like the idea of mixing a conductive hull, salt water, and a small tesla's worth of battery power. I dont know how it will short but i know i dont want to be anywhere near it when it does. Fiberglass please.

mperham 5y ago
“Small Tesla”, nowhere close, far more. The boat has 200 kW, Model Y has 75!
khazhoux 5y ago
> Electrification is cool, but dont make so many changes at once. Hmm, I'm reminded on how Google Wave had a launch-date feature of custom scroll bars. Because that was somehow important.
kylecordes 5y ago
Lots of recreational boats (probably most small ones, aside from fishing boats with a trolling motor) used on lakes have no backup motor. If things break, you hopefully find someone to tow you.

chrisdalke 5y ago

Not a huge amount of information to comment on (They don't even show the fully-loaded weight of the boat which is probably the most important factor), but the focus on a lightweight hull seems like the right path and is similar to other startups in this field. Electrification of boats is uniquely challenging because it's a delicately balanced optimization problem -- You need to keep the boat up on plane to get a reasonable range and compete in the same class as other recreational motorboats. Getting on plane requires a high peak power output, but that in turn requires a heavier battery pack, making it harder to get up to speed... Battery energy density is not quite at the point where you can just stick a battery and electric motor in an existing boat hull and expect it to perform, so the theme of all these companies is using a custom lightweight hull or hydrofoil to reduce drag/weight enough to avoid the energy density problem. Another interesting startup is Candela (https://candela.com/ https://candela.com/) who is taking on the problem from a similar angle; they use hydrofoils and a complex controls system to keep the hull foiling which is very low drag. That said, I'm not sure Arc has done their research on the market fit for aluminum hulls. Based on their concepts it will take a lot of work to convince the recreational boating scene to buy a $300k aluminum boat with an inboard motor; typically aluminum hulls are used for fishing and shallow waters, and in those use cases an inboard doesn't make sense -- it might be better equipped in that case with a jet drive but would hit power issues there.

nitrogen 5y ago
Getting on plane requires a high peak power output Could a capacitor bank be used to deliver a burst of power to plane out? Or does the weight and volume of capacitors still exceed what's practical? Also seems like it wouldn't work for wakeboarding, where the goal is to generate a big, inefficient wake all the time.
- chrisdalke 5y ago
  The power required to plane in a boat looks a bit like a normal curve -- Power consumption scales upwards exponentially with speed until you either 1) Get going fast enough to hydroplane and reach a high efficiency regime 2) Hit the peak power of the drivetrain and fail to accelerate further A capacitor bank wouldn't really help here, since that power has to come from somewhere. The issue isn't that the batteries aren't capable of outputting that peak power -- Even small battery systems are more than capable of outputting the 50kw+ it might take to get on plane. The real issue is that doing that repeatedly requires you to scale up your battery capacity and weight, which is a positive feedback loop. Boats are not just getting on/off plane once on a tank of gas, they're doing it 10-20 times depending on driving conditions, surroundings, no wake zones. This might happen 100s of times for watersports like wakeboarding. So a big part of the equation is finding a way to save weight elsewhere that can then be used to insert more batteries.

Jerry2 5y ago

>24ft long >$300k That makes it $2.5k/ft! For a recreational, non-competition, Class I boat, that's absolutely incredible to me.

riffic 5y ago

batteries in the bilge, what could go wrong?

cma 5y ago

Consumer sporting boats have too little uilization and no meaningful regen potential to waste batteries on them that could go into cars.

cma 5y ago
By utilization I just mean percent of time in use (mostly only see on weekends), not making judgment on "utility" vs leisure. It could make sense in a rental scenario or ski instructor, etc.

elil17 5y ago

Every time they write “team of aerospace engineers” I read “we didn’t bother hiring a naval architect because we think we’re smart enough to do this without knowing anything about boats.”

xkcd-sucks 5y ago
Or mechanical engineers who know statics and fluid dynamics sell themselves as "aerospace" because it's sexier/higher salary
JimTheMan 5y ago
More like, we train a huge amount of aerospace engineers every year but there's actually not a lot of aerospace work relative to the volume of graduates, so they have to go find other things to do. And seeing as there are many similarities with a mechanical engineering degree, what they can do is quite broad. Also my understanding is that there are very people in the US who are naval architects.

polartx 5y ago

At least they didn’t find a way to squeeze “3D printing” into pitch or production. I’m so tired of seeing “3D print” as a buzzword, or to replace older/better construction practices.

ravedave5 5y ago

This is silly over priced. Here's ones built using standard hulls for literally 1/10th of the price - https://plugboats.com/pure-watercraft-adds-3-new-electric-boat-packages/ https://plugboats.com/pure-watercraft-adds-3-new-electric-bo...

RandallBrown 5y ago
It might be, but those boats are not in the same class as the Arc Boat.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Well, sure. They actually exist.

worldsayshi 5y ago

Or just get a sailing boat

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dtgriscom 5y ago

No videos anywhere that I can find; you'd think that something that'll be shipped by the end of the year has some prototypes tooling around. That said, I'd love to have an almost-silent boat to wander around in.

ur-whale 5y ago

This is IMO way cooler (it's got foils): https://candela.com/ https://candela.com/

khazhoux 5y ago

$300,000 Looks neat, but insane price given that the even the first-year Tesla S's were in the $50-70K range.

gnabgib 5y ago
Feels like you're cherry picking since the 2006 Tesla's were $80-120K [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(first_generati...] Early adopter wise this isn't so outrageous?

arecurrence 5y ago

If you found this cool, take a look at Silent Yachts https://www.silent-yachts.com https://www.silent-yachts.com . They have already delivered several practical all electric yachts that cross oceans.

boatsector 5y ago

How exactly are you supposed to drop anchor with that design? Or even tie it? There seems to be no access to the bow whatsoever ?!

megablast 5y ago

The future is the past. The future is a sailboat with no carbon pollution.

breck 5y ago

In Hawai'i I see hydrofoils more and more. The way they move looks to me like there's a significant (2x+) advantage in efficiency (and smoother ride). So I'd expect "The Next Generation of Boats" to have a hydro foil. I'm a complete layman though, so could be wrong. Can anyone answer whether modern hydrofoils are a game changer?