4 ms·

I wish Elon was a railway nerd, it would be a much more effective way to spend the cash.

andrepd 5y ago
I wish we could make decisions collectively, on how to spend resources. Rather than hoping our Lords have the wish and temperament to choose the best thing. x)
- blhack 5y ago
  We do make these decisions collectively. Either directly via capitalism, or indirectly via democracy.
  - chrismsimpson 5y ago
    Ah yes, America. Land of the ‘stolen’ gerrymandered election.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
    Via capitalism, Jeff Bezos and I decide the future of e-commerce. "We" make decisions when I buy socks and Bezos chooses how best to sell them to me. "We" are good. Also, Kim Jong-un and his people make decisions collectively: Kim suggests something and when his people agree (or just don't die), decisions materialize! These decisions are collective because nothing would happen if Kim acts alone. Wait. Maybe "collective" does not mean "multiple people working together" but cooperating towards common and mutual benefits. Those who cannot afford not to work for those who owns the capital don't make a "collective" with those who own them and decide how things must be (e.g how much Amazon can pay less tax than individuals and small businesses). Also, democracy is more than a word: when you have no choice but to vote for candidates who support billionaires, there's no "collective" behind the election either.
- nickik 5y ago
  That is what is happening, but if you do that then decisions are gone take many, many years and you end up with the lowest common denominator. And those 'lords' whatever that means got that rich because they invested their personal time and resources into things that ended up working out and that's why they have the resources they have.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    Not quite, but I think there no use in repeating 200 years of criticism of capitalism here, suffices to say "they got rich cause they worked hard" is a very shallow take. EDIT: To be clear: markets≠capitalism
    - nickik 5y ago
      Capitalism is private property and trade. Markets without ownership are mostly meaningless. All models of market socialism are mostly theoretical. Even the inventor market socialism didn't get far in implementing it. Yes there are some markets that can exist outside of that but not a central organizing principle of an economy. > "they got rich cause they worked hard" is a very shallow take The worked hard on the right idea. Its not a 'take' its a fact'. I didn't say 'anybody that works hard will be rich'. That would be a shallow take.
- prepend 5y ago
  Yes, that would be nice. I think these tunnels were made because we suck at making decisions collectively. There’s nothing stopping Vegas (or other cities) from doing something even smarter. Nothing except people and enough competent companies who can implement. At least Boring Company is helping with the latter and providing more options.
hoseja 5y ago
He'd also fail in the US.
nickik 5y ago
For people that have no personal stake to say 'if we invest in this tech it would be better', well that's what people said about rockets and EV as well. I can't count how many times people in the last 10 years wanted the government to go all in on hydrogen or whatever. The Boring company is mainly about in city transport, not city to city transport, so its simply a different problem. And there is a reason why commercial railroads are no longer effective, literally nowhere are they effective. Elon Musk is not magic, he picks the technology that he thinks can be commercially effective.
- hef19898 5y ago
  China and Europe might disagree with you evaluation of rail roads being ineffective.
  - nickik 5y ago
    All European countries pay massive amounts of money for their high speed rail. The prices costumers reflect do not cover the cost. Of course we can make some of the same assumptions about highways. If there was actual competition between these systems we might have a more accurate picture. But private highways do actually seem to be profitable in some countries. China invest untold billions in that system, and I don't know enough to say if this is defensible on commercial bases.
    - orwin 5y ago
      > The prices costumers reflect do not cover the cost. Yeah right, let's see if this assertion is true (keep in mind that all infra cost are budgeted into annual revenue). Numbers from 2019 which was not a great year for french companies (2020 was worse, but for everyone): https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200228005403/en/SNCF-Group-2019-Annual-Results https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200228005403/en/SNC... So, -300m in 2019, with strikes costing 600m (so a net positive of 300m if not for the yellow vest and strikes). -300m for an EBITDA fo 5+bn, i'd consider that you assertion "The prices costumers reflect do not cover the cost" is false, and rail is profitable. High-speed rail even more so. But i'd agree that some rails are not sustainable and are only still kept thanks to the profitable ones. But the Paris-Marseille or Paris-Bordeaux are definitly profitable.

I wish we could make decisions collectively, on how to spend resources. Rather than hoping our Lords have the wish and temperament to choose the best thing. x)

blhack 5y ago
We do make these decisions collectively. Either directly via capitalism, or indirectly via democracy.
- chrismsimpson 5y ago
  Ah yes, America. Land of the ‘stolen’ gerrymandered election.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  Via capitalism, Jeff Bezos and I decide the future of e-commerce. "We" make decisions when I buy socks and Bezos chooses how best to sell them to me. "We" are good. Also, Kim Jong-un and his people make decisions collectively: Kim suggests something and when his people agree (or just don't die), decisions materialize! These decisions are collective because nothing would happen if Kim acts alone. Wait. Maybe "collective" does not mean "multiple people working together" but cooperating towards common and mutual benefits. Those who cannot afford not to work for those who owns the capital don't make a "collective" with those who own them and decide how things must be (e.g how much Amazon can pay less tax than individuals and small businesses). Also, democracy is more than a word: when you have no choice but to vote for candidates who support billionaires, there's no "collective" behind the election either.
nickik 5y ago
That is what is happening, but if you do that then decisions are gone take many, many years and you end up with the lowest common denominator. And those 'lords' whatever that means got that rich because they invested their personal time and resources into things that ended up working out and that's why they have the resources they have.
- andrepd 5y ago
  Not quite, but I think there no use in repeating 200 years of criticism of capitalism here, suffices to say "they got rich cause they worked hard" is a very shallow take. EDIT: To be clear: markets≠capitalism
  - nickik 5y ago
    Capitalism is private property and trade. Markets without ownership are mostly meaningless. All models of market socialism are mostly theoretical. Even the inventor market socialism didn't get far in implementing it. Yes there are some markets that can exist outside of that but not a central organizing principle of an economy. > "they got rich cause they worked hard" is a very shallow take The worked hard on the right idea. Its not a 'take' its a fact'. I didn't say 'anybody that works hard will be rich'. That would be a shallow take.
prepend 5y ago
Yes, that would be nice. I think these tunnels were made because we suck at making decisions collectively. There’s nothing stopping Vegas (or other cities) from doing something even smarter. Nothing except people and enough competent companies who can implement. At least Boring Company is helping with the latter and providing more options.

hoseja 5y ago

He'd also fail in the US.

nickik 5y ago

For people that have no personal stake to say 'if we invest in this tech it would be better', well that's what people said about rockets and EV as well. I can't count how many times people in the last 10 years wanted the government to go all in on hydrogen or whatever. The Boring company is mainly about in city transport, not city to city transport, so its simply a different problem. And there is a reason why commercial railroads are no longer effective, literally nowhere are they effective. Elon Musk is not magic, he picks the technology that he thinks can be commercially effective.

hef19898 5y ago
China and Europe might disagree with you evaluation of rail roads being ineffective.
- nickik 5y ago
  All European countries pay massive amounts of money for their high speed rail. The prices costumers reflect do not cover the cost. Of course we can make some of the same assumptions about highways. If there was actual competition between these systems we might have a more accurate picture. But private highways do actually seem to be profitable in some countries. China invest untold billions in that system, and I don't know enough to say if this is defensible on commercial bases.
  - orwin 5y ago
    > The prices costumers reflect do not cover the cost. Yeah right, let's see if this assertion is true (keep in mind that all infra cost are budgeted into annual revenue). Numbers from 2019 which was not a great year for french companies (2020 was worse, but for everyone): https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200228005403/en/SNCF-Group-2019-Annual-Results https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200228005403/en/SNC... So, -300m in 2019, with strikes costing 600m (so a net positive of 300m if not for the yellow vest and strikes). -300m for an EBITDA fo 5+bn, i'd consider that you assertion "The prices costumers reflect do not cover the cost" is false, and rail is profitable. High-speed rail even more so. But i'd agree that some rails are not sustainable and are only still kept thanks to the profitable ones. But the Paris-Marseille or Paris-Bordeaux are definitly profitable.