24 ms·

> No “papers please” to allow me to participate in normal society where the group in power gets to decide if I’m acceptable. What are your thoughts on individu

by rualca 5y ago

> No “papers please” to allow me to participate in normal society where the group in power gets to decide if I’m acceptable. What are your thoughts on individuals contracting and spreading a disease that has killed millions already due to their refusal to comply with the most basic health and safety precautions? Do you believe that someone's refusal to comply with basic sanitary precautions should take precedence over my and my family and loved one's desire to not die of a preventable disease? And where do you draw the line in that refusal to comply with basic health and safety precautions? Do you also extend it to other viral diseases that are preventable by vaccination such as measles, or do you single out covid?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
random314 5y ago
Imagine being asked to show a driver's license before renting a car!
- atatatat 5y ago
  Imagine many of those being given to those who can't drive the car safely, because driving is considered a right in many communities.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Last I checked, I didn't need a license to go outside or buy a coffee. That's the future I want to avoid, you want the screaming majority to dictate if you're allowed to do anything outside your home, go ahead and continue to advocate social control with this metaphor.
  - avh02 5y ago
    > Last I checked, I didn't need a license to go outside or buy a coffee What I heard though is you may get carded to buy alcohol.
  - random314 5y ago
    The drivers license proves that you won't be an unreasonable risk to other people commandeering a 4 ton death machine on the road.
    - vips7L 5y ago
      No it doesn’t. [0] [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/
      - random314 5y ago
        Standard expected response. Which is why I said unreasonable risk. Not zero risk. To test this hypothesis, take a car and drive it around for an hour. If someone doesn't ram into you, congratulations licensing works. Otoh drive around with a bunch of 13 year olds at the wheel. Experience is going to be very different.
colechristensen 5y ago
One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk. >Do you believe that someone's refusal to comply with basic sanitary precautions should take precedence over my and my family and loved one's desire to not die of a preventable disease? Did you and your family get vaccinated? What unvaccinated people do does not affect your risk profile in any meaningful way. Are your kids too young to get vaccinated? The last flu season pre covid killed more under 18s than COVID-19 has. Do we need government mandated vaccinations and mask mandates for every flu season now? >And where do you draw the line in that refusal to comply with basic health and safety precautions? Do you also extend it to other viral diseases that are preventable by vaccination such as measles, or do you single out covid? Do you get asked if you've had a measles vaccine before you get seated at a restaurant? Are you suggesting this is a reasonable action? You draw the line where there is a real serious threat which passes a certain threshold. But with COVID-19 like so many things, the people speaking loudly about promoting their cause in protecting us from it (not the professionals) have absolutely no conditions for victory and will endlessly move goalposts forward and endlessly try to do more regardless if risks change by orders of magnitude. If you're vaccinated or too young to be vaccinated, COVID-19 is over for you. The risk went from 1 in 1000 people dying to no worse than the risk in any flu season, unless that very mild risk makes you think that we should reinvent what personal freedoms in society means, stop turning and ending pandemic into a catastrophe.
- rualca 5y ago
  > One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk. But you are not actually discussing anything related to freedom at all, right? You're just defending that your personal preferences should be unquestionably imposed onto everyone around you, aren't you? I mean, do you feel the measles or tetanus shots violate your freedom? I mean, if you really valued freedom then wouldn't you be doing your hardest to ensure that everyone around you should, say, not risk death by an easily preventable disease in spite of everyone except you taking basic precautions? > Do you get asked if you've had a measles vaccine before you get seated at a restaurant? Are you suggesting this is a reasonable action? You need to prove you are vaccinated when you travel internationally or enroll in a job or join a school. And this is an absolutely mundane thing for the entire world, because it's easily understood these are very basic precautions to not contract or risk transmitting diseases. There is no measles outbreak or even pandemic. There is however a covid pandemic. If you wish to get back to a normal life, the very least we can do is to mitigate the risk covid poses to society. This involves basic stuff like respecting social distancing, wearing a face mask, washing your hands, and get the vaccine. If a small but militant group insists in putting everyone at risk by intentionally and systematically violating basic health and safety precautions then the only hope society has is to mitigate this risk. So why yes, obviously yes. Don't you agree? Or do you actually believe that an individual's whims and irresponsiblr and reckless behavior should simply put everyone else's life at risk just because?

by rualca 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

random314 5y ago

Imagine being asked to show a driver's license before renting a car!

atatatat 5y ago
Imagine many of those being given to those who can't drive the car safely, because driving is considered a right in many communities.
colechristensen 5y ago
Last I checked, I didn't need a license to go outside or buy a coffee. That's the future I want to avoid, you want the screaming majority to dictate if you're allowed to do anything outside your home, go ahead and continue to advocate social control with this metaphor.
- avh02 5y ago
  > Last I checked, I didn't need a license to go outside or buy a coffee What I heard though is you may get carded to buy alcohol.
- random314 5y ago
  The drivers license proves that you won't be an unreasonable risk to other people commandeering a 4 ton death machine on the road.
  - vips7L 5y ago
    No it doesn’t. [0] [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/
    - random314 5y ago
      Standard expected response. Which is why I said unreasonable risk. Not zero risk. To test this hypothesis, take a car and drive it around for an hour. If someone doesn't ram into you, congratulations licensing works. Otoh drive around with a bunch of 13 year olds at the wheel. Experience is going to be very different.

colechristensen 5y ago

One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk. >Do you believe that someone's refusal to comply with basic sanitary precautions should take precedence over my and my family and loved one's desire to not die of a preventable disease? Did you and your family get vaccinated? What unvaccinated people do does not affect your risk profile in any meaningful way. Are your kids too young to get vaccinated? The last flu season pre covid killed more under 18s than COVID-19 has. Do we need government mandated vaccinations and mask mandates for every flu season now? >And where do you draw the line in that refusal to comply with basic health and safety precautions? Do you also extend it to other viral diseases that are preventable by vaccination such as measles, or do you single out covid? Do you get asked if you've had a measles vaccine before you get seated at a restaurant? Are you suggesting this is a reasonable action? You draw the line where there is a real serious threat which passes a certain threshold. But with COVID-19 like so many things, the people speaking loudly about promoting their cause in protecting us from it (not the professionals) have absolutely no conditions for victory and will endlessly move goalposts forward and endlessly try to do more regardless if risks change by orders of magnitude. If you're vaccinated or too young to be vaccinated, COVID-19 is over for you. The risk went from 1 in 1000 people dying to no worse than the risk in any flu season, unless that very mild risk makes you think that we should reinvent what personal freedoms in society means, stop turning and ending pandemic into a catastrophe.

rualca 5y ago
> One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk. But you are not actually discussing anything related to freedom at all, right? You're just defending that your personal preferences should be unquestionably imposed onto everyone around you, aren't you? I mean, do you feel the measles or tetanus shots violate your freedom? I mean, if you really valued freedom then wouldn't you be doing your hardest to ensure that everyone around you should, say, not risk death by an easily preventable disease in spite of everyone except you taking basic precautions? > Do you get asked if you've had a measles vaccine before you get seated at a restaurant? Are you suggesting this is a reasonable action? You need to prove you are vaccinated when you travel internationally or enroll in a job or join a school. And this is an absolutely mundane thing for the entire world, because it's easily understood these are very basic precautions to not contract or risk transmitting diseases. There is no measles outbreak or even pandemic. There is however a covid pandemic. If you wish to get back to a normal life, the very least we can do is to mitigate the risk covid poses to society. This involves basic stuff like respecting social distancing, wearing a face mask, washing your hands, and get the vaccine. If a small but militant group insists in putting everyone at risk by intentionally and systematically violating basic health and safety precautions then the only hope society has is to mitigate this risk. So why yes, obviously yes. Don't you agree? Or do you actually believe that an individual's whims and irresponsiblr and reckless behavior should simply put everyone else's life at risk just because?