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Problem #3 Many managers really contribute nothing. WFH is exposing that

diragon 5y ago
That's only true if your team is miraculously self-sufficient. Also, good managers don't need offices.
jcims 5y ago
I'm curious about the vocal disdain for 'managers' here at HN. I know it's just a subset of folks voicing these opinions but I'm intrigued by the level of vitriol and consistency of the message. I've been filing taxes since 1988 and I've only had one or two managers that I would say are truly incompetent. I would say most of my managers have rusty but relevant technical skills, have been open to my input, are generally willing to negotiate through disagreements and, my favorite, leave me alone. I've had a handful of legendary managers, a word I am tempted to put in quotes because they inspired me, helped me grow, and left me in a much better state than they found me. Having managed multiple teams myself, it can be a fuckin' slog. There have always been one or two extremely high maintenance people on the team, conflicts to resolve, bullshit HR stuff to take care of, commitments to defend, bullshit to block, misses to explain and some amount of time tending to vestigial organizational dependencies that somehow are impossible to shake. And that's without immigration to deal with...that's an entire mess of its own. That is all in addition to actually developing some type of relationship with each member of the team. Trying to get a feel for their communication style, pull(!) out from them some idea of what they see on the horizon, continuously observe their interaction with the team and overall performance at their job. Look for recommendations to help them improve in areas that need it and then run that through what you've learned about them in order to deliver it in a way in which they will be receptive. Mine progress for evidence of efforts from the underrecognized and let them know they are seen. Plan for promos when the time is right, begin evangelizing your employee early on, work on promo package with them, mine your network for support as you educate your employee on what is needed to get it done. Then you have the periodic dumpster fires that 99% of the time are entirely avoidable. Intra and inter-team fights, liars and cowboys breaking shit, last minute disclosures of untenable delivery gaps, HR-issues, extra curricular issues, etc. It's not a particularly easy job and I would say that the combination of technical and interpersonal skills that would be required to meet expectations I see voiced here and elsewhere are in extremely limited supply. I know I have and will continue to fall short of that standard many times. Dunno, maybe I've just been lucky.
- legulere 5y ago
  You’ve said it yourself that your favorite behavior of managers is to leave you alone. But what’s their use then? If apart from having autonomy you only have negative experiences with management your idea of them ranges from useless to harmful. I haven’t seen what they do in the background and am working for not so long but so far managers have not really impressed me.
  - iamstupidsimple 5y ago
    The best managers I've worked with unblock ICs, and defend from company-wide politics. Maybe set direction at a team level. Ordering smart, creative people around just obliterates 99% of their value.
    - runawaybottle 5y ago
      Managers are also like movie directors. I’ve been on projects where smart people can focus on the wrong parts of a project. Sometimes it takes one person to orchestrate the band, hone in one what is the true impactful work. Shepard the sheep through to the finish line, especially if they are headed in an ambiguous direction. Now, what’s all that got to do with having butts in a seat that you can physically see? Jack shit really.
      - gilbetron 5y ago
        I think what you are talking about with the former and technical leads and product owners, not typical people managers. There is overlap, as it gets fuzzy, but most managers I've experienced have terrible technical insights and are instead an active blocker to great results.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    I think it depends on what you want. I don't spend a lot of time dealing with my manager. He leaves me alone. But he also deals with all the stuff coming down from above so my job is just coding. To me that is a win as I don't want to have to deal with anything on his schedule.
bottled_poe 5y ago
I'm sure there are cases where that is true, but doubt (hope?) it is not the norm. Perhaps instead of assuming they have zero value, maybe you don't have visibility of their value and contribution?

That's only true if your team is miraculously self-sufficient. Also, good managers don't need offices.

I'm curious about the vocal disdain for 'managers' here at HN. I know it's just a subset of folks voicing these opinions but I'm intrigued by the level of vitriol and consistency of the message. I've been filing taxes since 1988 and I've only had one or two managers that I would say are truly incompetent. I would say most of my managers have rusty but relevant technical skills, have been open to my input, are generally willing to negotiate through disagreements and, my favorite, leave me alone. I've had a handful of legendary managers, a word I am tempted to put in quotes because they inspired me, helped me grow, and left me in a much better state than they found me. Having managed multiple teams myself, it can be a fuckin' slog. There have always been one or two extremely high maintenance people on the team, conflicts to resolve, bullshit HR stuff to take care of, commitments to defend, bullshit to block, misses to explain and some amount of time tending to vestigial organizational dependencies that somehow are impossible to shake. And that's without immigration to deal with...that's an entire mess of its own. That is all in addition to actually developing some type of relationship with each member of the team. Trying to get a feel for their communication style, pull(!) out from them some idea of what they see on the horizon, continuously observe their interaction with the team and overall performance at their job. Look for recommendations to help them improve in areas that need it and then run that through what you've learned about them in order to deliver it in a way in which they will be receptive. Mine progress for evidence of efforts from the underrecognized and let them know they are seen. Plan for promos when the time is right, begin evangelizing your employee early on, work on promo package with them, mine your network for support as you educate your employee on what is needed to get it done. Then you have the periodic dumpster fires that 99% of the time are entirely avoidable. Intra and inter-team fights, liars and cowboys breaking shit, last minute disclosures of untenable delivery gaps, HR-issues, extra curricular issues, etc. It's not a particularly easy job and I would say that the combination of technical and interpersonal skills that would be required to meet expectations I see voiced here and elsewhere are in extremely limited supply. I know I have and will continue to fall short of that standard many times. Dunno, maybe I've just been lucky.

legulere 5y ago
You’ve said it yourself that your favorite behavior of managers is to leave you alone. But what’s their use then? If apart from having autonomy you only have negative experiences with management your idea of them ranges from useless to harmful. I haven’t seen what they do in the background and am working for not so long but so far managers have not really impressed me.
- iamstupidsimple 5y ago
  The best managers I've worked with unblock ICs, and defend from company-wide politics. Maybe set direction at a team level. Ordering smart, creative people around just obliterates 99% of their value.
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    Managers are also like movie directors. I’ve been on projects where smart people can focus on the wrong parts of a project. Sometimes it takes one person to orchestrate the band, hone in one what is the true impactful work. Shepard the sheep through to the finish line, especially if they are headed in an ambiguous direction. Now, what’s all that got to do with having butts in a seat that you can physically see? Jack shit really.
    - gilbetron 5y ago
      I think what you are talking about with the former and technical leads and product owners, not typical people managers. There is overlap, as it gets fuzzy, but most managers I've experienced have terrible technical insights and are instead an active blocker to great results.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I think it depends on what you want. I don't spend a lot of time dealing with my manager. He leaves me alone. But he also deals with all the stuff coming down from above so my job is just coding. To me that is a win as I don't want to have to deal with anything on his schedule.

bottled_poe 5y ago

I'm sure there are cases where that is true, but doubt (hope?) it is not the norm. Perhaps instead of assuming they have zero value, maybe you don't have visibility of their value and contribution?