11 ms·

It sure as hell would accelerate the outsourcing of game development, which has rapidly growing capacity outside of the US & Western Europe. We're already very

It sure as hell would accelerate the outsourcing of game development, which has rapidly growing capacity outside of the US & Western Europe. We're already very near the tipping point where non-Western studios will produce >50% of global industry revenue.

d4mi3n 5y ago
There’s a whole line of discussion to be had around the realities of outsourcing to be had, but I’d like to focus on discussing employee rights. Are we OK with employees being treated like this? Are we willing to make concessions on our relationships with our employer under threat of losing our jobs (outsourcing is just one of the many ways a job can be taken away). I’m of the thinking that companies should not be able to abuse the inherent power they hold as employers to deny some pretty basic rights like the ability to sue from individual employees.
- chadcmulligan 5y ago
  Unions do this, they negotiate agreements that are fair and equitable for the members. I grew up with unions and have seen them go out of favour, and the practices that caused the unions in the first place are rising again. The part I find surprising/despicable is how much money is put towards denigrating unions so that the workers think they're bad - the recent amazon vote comes to mind.
  - winphone1974 5y ago
    Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are just as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
  - winphone1974 5y ago
    Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are busy as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
    - kevingadd 5y ago
      This specific criticism goes both ways and isn't unique to unions, though. Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance. Maybe one of your parents ends up sick or injured so their performance at work is suffering and you really want them to be protected while they get through that temporary hurdle instead of being laid off and replaced with cheap new labor. Eliminating unions doesn't eliminate the issues you're talking about. As far as not being able to get a job goes, it sounds like your real complaint is that there aren't enough jobs. That will be true whether or not a workplace is unionized in most cases since the employer has a certain amount of work they need done by a certain number of people.
      - dbsmith83 5y ago
        > Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance Maybe one or two, but not a large proportion of an aging workforce riding purely on the protection of the union
        underseacables 5y ago
        I think the federal government is a good example of what happens when you have a union that protects bad employees. It’s very hard to get fired from the government, because the union protects the bad with the good. A great example are the rubber rooms where they have to put bad teachers because the union forbids them from being fired. Unions had their day, now they are just slush funds and protections for bad people.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    The problem with unions is that power corrupts and some of them become political organizations.
    - stuaxo 5y ago
      Maybe that is a US perspective? A union is political in it's very nature (and of course it's an organisation).
tehjoker 5y ago
Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other workers so the capitalists have no where to run.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  "so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
    - wonderwonder 5y ago
      You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
As someone in the games industry that has seen the stuff that foreign "helper" studios "contribute" I do not feel this is likely...
- dam5s 5y ago
  Agreed, as a consultant in software engineering (not games though), a lot of companies that used to outsource have come back for many reasons, mainly communication and code quality.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
esyir 5y ago
I'm fine with that. Western games have by large fallen off the radar for me, at least those run by large companies. Only a few really stand out right now.

d4mi3n 5y ago

There’s a whole line of discussion to be had around the realities of outsourcing to be had, but I’d like to focus on discussing employee rights. Are we OK with employees being treated like this? Are we willing to make concessions on our relationships with our employer under threat of losing our jobs (outsourcing is just one of the many ways a job can be taken away). I’m of the thinking that companies should not be able to abuse the inherent power they hold as employers to deny some pretty basic rights like the ability to sue from individual employees.

chadcmulligan 5y ago
Unions do this, they negotiate agreements that are fair and equitable for the members. I grew up with unions and have seen them go out of favour, and the practices that caused the unions in the first place are rising again. The part I find surprising/despicable is how much money is put towards denigrating unions so that the workers think they're bad - the recent amazon vote comes to mind.
- winphone1974 5y ago
  Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are just as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
- winphone1974 5y ago
  Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are busy as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
  - kevingadd 5y ago
    This specific criticism goes both ways and isn't unique to unions, though. Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance. Maybe one of your parents ends up sick or injured so their performance at work is suffering and you really want them to be protected while they get through that temporary hurdle instead of being laid off and replaced with cheap new labor. Eliminating unions doesn't eliminate the issues you're talking about. As far as not being able to get a job goes, it sounds like your real complaint is that there aren't enough jobs. That will be true whether or not a workplace is unionized in most cases since the employer has a certain amount of work they need done by a certain number of people.
    - dbsmith83 5y ago
      > Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance Maybe one or two, but not a large proportion of an aging workforce riding purely on the protection of the union
      - underseacables 5y ago
        I think the federal government is a good example of what happens when you have a union that protects bad employees. It’s very hard to get fired from the government, because the union protects the bad with the good. A great example are the rubber rooms where they have to put bad teachers because the union forbids them from being fired. Unions had their day, now they are just slush funds and protections for bad people.
- hulitu 5y ago
  The problem with unions is that power corrupts and some of them become political organizations.
  - stuaxo 5y ago
    Maybe that is a US perspective? A union is political in it's very nature (and of course it's an organisation).

tehjoker 5y ago

Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other workers so the capitalists have no where to run.

wonderwonder 5y ago
"so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.

Tiktaalik 5y ago

As someone in the games industry that has seen the stuff that foreign "helper" studios "contribute" I do not feel this is likely...

dam5s 5y ago
Agreed, as a consultant in software engineering (not games though), a lot of companies that used to outsource have come back for many reasons, mainly communication and code quality.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

esyir 5y ago

I'm fine with that. Western games have by large fallen off the radar for me, at least those run by large companies. Only a few really stand out right now.