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Wouldn't forming a union help them better negotiate as a group? FTA: "Activision Blizzard employees are also calling for an end to mandatory arbitration in emp

Wouldn't forming a union help them better negotiate as a group? FTA: "Activision Blizzard employees are also calling for an end to mandatory arbitration in employee contracts, which prevent workers from taking conflicts with their employer to court, policies to improve representation of women and marginalized groups, the publication of salary data, and an audit of the company by a diversity, equity and inclusion taskforce."

elefanten 5y ago
It sure as hell would accelerate the outsourcing of game development, which has rapidly growing capacity outside of the US & Western Europe. We're already very near the tipping point where non-Western studios will produce >50% of global industry revenue.
- d4mi3n 5y ago
  There’s a whole line of discussion to be had around the realities of outsourcing to be had, but I’d like to focus on discussing employee rights. Are we OK with employees being treated like this? Are we willing to make concessions on our relationships with our employer under threat of losing our jobs (outsourcing is just one of the many ways a job can be taken away). I’m of the thinking that companies should not be able to abuse the inherent power they hold as employers to deny some pretty basic rights like the ability to sue from individual employees.
  - chadcmulligan 5y ago
    Unions do this, they negotiate agreements that are fair and equitable for the members. I grew up with unions and have seen them go out of favour, and the practices that caused the unions in the first place are rising again. The part I find surprising/despicable is how much money is put towards denigrating unions so that the workers think they're bad - the recent amazon vote comes to mind.
    - winphone1974 5y ago
      Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are just as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
    - winphone1974 5y ago
      Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are busy as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
      - kevingadd 5y ago
        This specific criticism goes both ways and isn't unique to unions, though. Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance. Maybe one of your parents ends up sick or injured so their performance at work is suffering and you really want them to be protected while they get through that temporary hurdle instead of being laid off and replaced with cheap new labor. Eliminating unions doesn't eliminate the issues you're talking about. As far as not being able to get a job goes, it sounds like your real complaint is that there aren't enough jobs. That will be true whether or not a workplace is unionized in most cases since the employer has a certain amount of work they need done by a certain number of people.
        dbsmith83 5y ago
        > Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance Maybe one or two, but not a large proportion of an aging workforce riding purely on the protection of the union
        underseacables 5y ago
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other workers so the capitalists have no where to run.
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    "so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
    - tehjoker 5y ago
      The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
      - wonderwonder 5y ago
        You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
  As someone in the games industry that has seen the stuff that foreign "helper" studios "contribute" I do not feel this is likely...
  - dam5s 5y ago
    Agreed, as a consultant in software engineering (not games though), a lot of companies that used to outsource have come back for many reasons, mainly communication and code quality.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- esyir 5y ago
  I'm fine with that. Western games have by large fallen off the radar for me, at least those run by large companies. Only a few really stand out right now.
oijasfpoi 5y ago
Have you ever dealt with an actual union in the US? The ones I've dealt with are incredibly sexist and racist. They work to protect harassers, and they prevent employees from taking their employers to court.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Have you ever dealt with an actual company in the US? The ones I've dealt with are incredibly sexist and racist. They work to protect harassers and they prevent employees from taking their employers to court. EDIT: To elaborate, if you are in a bind, you have usually four places to turn. The employer, the state, your coworkers and other workers in a union, and the people generally (via the media, protests, etc). Your coworkers are likely to have similar interests to you and are strategically positioned to make demands by virtue of the fact they have their hands on the levers of production. Take your pick.
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    Turn to any of those places while hoping to keep your job will make your life a living hell. Speaking out against a company while not unionized means you'll have your coworkers sympathy, if nothing else. Do the same against a union in the US and you can forget having even that. Closed shop, one-union-per-company is surely the worst of both worlds. You end up with two managerial classes that you have no power against.
garmaine 5y ago
Unions work where labor is interchangeable. That is definitely not the case in game industry, where people are highly specialized and super creative.
- seanhunter 5y ago
  There are unions in the film industry for example which seems extremely comparable.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    Not for the creative roles. Maybe you're thinking of guilds? They're both forms of collective representation, but quite different on the ground.
    - seanhunter 5y ago
      They certainly are a union and describe themselves as such. For example, from https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild "We are the Writers Guild of America West (WGAW), a labor union composed of the thousands of writers who write the content for television shows, movies, news programs, documentaries, animation, and Internet and mobile phones (new media) that keep audiences constantly entertained and informed. "
      - garmaine 5y ago
        I'm sure they do describe themselves as a union. Most non-insiders don't know the difference between the two, and probably many guild members don't either. But legally speaking, a guild is an organization for collective bargaining of independent contractors, while a union is for employees. If you are a television producer hiring a writer, you don't go to the WGA. You just interview a bunch of writers, select the one you want, and offer them the job. Like you would any other job, really, except that if the writer is a member of the guild then the terms of employment must meet some certain standards, with rules about crediting and overtime, etc. But so long as you adhere to the guild's rules, it's like hiring any other independent contractor. But if you're a ship captain wanting to offload cargo, you go to the longshoreman's union and as for N day workers. You don't pick who, and you don't negotiate rates other than specifying (and paying for) the desired experience level. You ask for N longshoremen, and you get N warm bodies and the bill. To the point of this conversation, a guild makes more sense in a creative project where the skill and art of the worker matters to the end result. If you're producing a TV comedy, you really need to make sure you employ the correct writers. Likewise for game designers.
LatteLazy 5y ago
I'm not sure unions can help with cultural issues: the frats can and should also join the union, then the union has to represent them. If the frat boy culture is rife in the company, it will be rife in the union.
hermannj314 5y ago
I was part of one union and it did a good job of negotiating benefits, pay, hours, seniority, job titles, etc. If the issue you have with management is harassment primarily, is it possible to create a union only to resolve that issue? Many may not want to give up individual bargaining on pay or hours simply because they wanted collective bargaining to deal with workplace harassment culture. How can an individual on the fence about supporting a union have guarantees to prevent that scope creep when forming a union? Or is it an all or nothing proposition? I.e. the union must negotiate everything on your behalf or it can not exist.

elefanten 5y ago

It sure as hell would accelerate the outsourcing of game development, which has rapidly growing capacity outside of the US & Western Europe. We're already very near the tipping point where non-Western studios will produce >50% of global industry revenue.

d4mi3n 5y ago
There’s a whole line of discussion to be had around the realities of outsourcing to be had, but I’d like to focus on discussing employee rights. Are we OK with employees being treated like this? Are we willing to make concessions on our relationships with our employer under threat of losing our jobs (outsourcing is just one of the many ways a job can be taken away). I’m of the thinking that companies should not be able to abuse the inherent power they hold as employers to deny some pretty basic rights like the ability to sue from individual employees.
- chadcmulligan 5y ago
  Unions do this, they negotiate agreements that are fair and equitable for the members. I grew up with unions and have seen them go out of favour, and the practices that caused the unions in the first place are rising again. The part I find surprising/despicable is how much money is put towards denigrating unions so that the workers think they're bad - the recent amazon vote comes to mind.
  - winphone1974 5y ago
    Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are just as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
  - winphone1974 5y ago
    Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are busy as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
    - kevingadd 5y ago
      This specific criticism goes both ways and isn't unique to unions, though. Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance. Maybe one of your parents ends up sick or injured so their performance at work is suffering and you really want them to be protected while they get through that temporary hurdle instead of being laid off and replaced with cheap new labor. Eliminating unions doesn't eliminate the issues you're talking about. As far as not being able to get a job goes, it sounds like your real complaint is that there aren't enough jobs. That will be true whether or not a workplace is unionized in most cases since the employer has a certain amount of work they need done by a certain number of people.
      - dbsmith83 5y ago
        > Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance Maybe one or two, but not a large proportion of an aging workforce riding purely on the protection of the union
        underseacables 5y ago
tehjoker 5y ago
Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other workers so the capitalists have no where to run.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  "so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
    - wonderwonder 5y ago
      You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
As someone in the games industry that has seen the stuff that foreign "helper" studios "contribute" I do not feel this is likely...
- dam5s 5y ago
  Agreed, as a consultant in software engineering (not games though), a lot of companies that used to outsource have come back for many reasons, mainly communication and code quality.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
esyir 5y ago
I'm fine with that. Western games have by large fallen off the radar for me, at least those run by large companies. Only a few really stand out right now.

oijasfpoi 5y ago

Have you ever dealt with an actual union in the US? The ones I've dealt with are incredibly sexist and racist. They work to protect harassers, and they prevent employees from taking their employers to court.

tehjoker 5y ago
Have you ever dealt with an actual company in the US? The ones I've dealt with are incredibly sexist and racist. They work to protect harassers and they prevent employees from taking their employers to court. EDIT: To elaborate, if you are in a bind, you have usually four places to turn. The employer, the state, your coworkers and other workers in a union, and the people generally (via the media, protests, etc). Your coworkers are likely to have similar interests to you and are strategically positioned to make demands by virtue of the fact they have their hands on the levers of production. Take your pick.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  Turn to any of those places while hoping to keep your job will make your life a living hell. Speaking out against a company while not unionized means you'll have your coworkers sympathy, if nothing else. Do the same against a union in the US and you can forget having even that. Closed shop, one-union-per-company is surely the worst of both worlds. You end up with two managerial classes that you have no power against.

garmaine 5y ago

Unions work where labor is interchangeable. That is definitely not the case in game industry, where people are highly specialized and super creative.

seanhunter 5y ago
There are unions in the film industry for example which seems extremely comparable.
- garmaine 5y ago
  Not for the creative roles. Maybe you're thinking of guilds? They're both forms of collective representation, but quite different on the ground.
  - seanhunter 5y ago
    They certainly are a union and describe themselves as such. For example, from https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild "We are the Writers Guild of America West (WGAW), a labor union composed of the thousands of writers who write the content for television shows, movies, news programs, documentaries, animation, and Internet and mobile phones (new media) that keep audiences constantly entertained and informed. "
    - garmaine 5y ago
      I'm sure they do describe themselves as a union. Most non-insiders don't know the difference between the two, and probably many guild members don't either. But legally speaking, a guild is an organization for collective bargaining of independent contractors, while a union is for employees. If you are a television producer hiring a writer, you don't go to the WGA. You just interview a bunch of writers, select the one you want, and offer them the job. Like you would any other job, really, except that if the writer is a member of the guild then the terms of employment must meet some certain standards, with rules about crediting and overtime, etc. But so long as you adhere to the guild's rules, it's like hiring any other independent contractor. But if you're a ship captain wanting to offload cargo, you go to the longshoreman's union and as for N day workers. You don't pick who, and you don't negotiate rates other than specifying (and paying for) the desired experience level. You ask for N longshoremen, and you get N warm bodies and the bill. To the point of this conversation, a guild makes more sense in a creative project where the skill and art of the worker matters to the end result. If you're producing a TV comedy, you really need to make sure you employ the correct writers. Likewise for game designers.

LatteLazy 5y ago

I'm not sure unions can help with cultural issues: the frats can and should also join the union, then the union has to represent them. If the frat boy culture is rife in the company, it will be rife in the union.

hermannj314 5y ago

I was part of one union and it did a good job of negotiating benefits, pay, hours, seniority, job titles, etc. If the issue you have with management is harassment primarily, is it possible to create a union only to resolve that issue? Many may not want to give up individual bargaining on pay or hours simply because they wanted collective bargaining to deal with workplace harassment culture. How can an individual on the fence about supporting a union have guarantees to prevent that scope creep when forming a union? Or is it an all or nothing proposition? I.e. the union must negotiate everything on your behalf or it can not exist.