6 ms·

Good reference - https://processormatch.intel.com/Resources/Program%20for%20CEC%20Friendly%20MB%20Guidelines%20June%202020%20Public.pdf https://processormatch.i

by shrike 5y ago

Good reference - https://processormatch.intel.com/Resources/Program%20for%20CEC%20Friendly%20MB%20Guidelines%20June%202020%20Public.pdf https://processormatch.intel.com/Resources/Program%20for%20C... The regulations seem reasonable. They are limited to regulating the amount of power used while desktop systems are at idle, not while "in use". They take into account the potential for accessories to be added by the end user, the "Expandability Score". This means "bigger" computers can consume more power at idle. The CEC defines 4 idle states; short-idle, long-idle, sleep and off. Each state is well defined - * Short Idle is system in S0 state, display on, no applications loaded or running, after a fresh re-boot. * Long Idle is the same as Short Idle except the screen is off. * Sleep is Power State S3 (or equivalent if the system doesn't directly implement S3). The regulations also specify the required default timeouts for transitioning between idle states, e.g. the screen should be turned off after 10 minutes without user input, it should enter S3 after 15, etc. These don't apply if the system ships without an OS installed, they explicitly say that an end-user is free to change the defaults.

nradov 5y ago
There's nothing reasonable about these regulations. If we want people to use less electricity then raise taxes on electricity and the free market will sort it out. Power is fungible.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  They probably wasted more energy while drafting these laws than they’re going to save.
- bko 5y ago
  Taking a step back, I don't see how we got from a government's role is to protect citizens from foreign invasion to determining what kind of computers gamers can buy through some byzantine energy scoring system. If you mentioned this as a possibility ten or twenty years ago as a slippery slope argument, most people would have thought you're crazy.
  - tafda 5y ago
    CAFE standards for automobile gas mileage have been around since 1975. Perhaps less a slippery slope and more the reality that America isn't a libertarian state?
    - deviledeggs 5y ago
      Emissions standards have also made it nearly impossible to repair your own vehicle, leading to tons of waste and extra expense. Car manufacturers like these regulations because they're an "eco friendly" way of banning self repairs.
  - jsmith99 5y ago
    That's exactly the point - sleep states and efficiency is indeed 'byzantine' and I don't see how you expect individual purchasers to understand it. 'Byzantine' complicated things are exactly where regulation is needed to help.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      > sleep states and efficiency is indeed 'byzantine' and I don't see how you expect individual purchasers to understand it You charge people a lot of money for electricity, and then this motivates them to learn it. A lot of 'byzantine' things are routine. A lot of the rituals we do with computers today would seem incredibly bizarre, and difficult to a person from 200 years ago. For example, on PCs, I hit the 'return' key to make a new line. Or on most computers, Cmd/Ctrl-V is often used to paste things. What does the letter V have to do with pasting anything? It's completely arbitrary and byzantine and the knowledge is frankly rarely mentioned and it's unclear to me how anyone learns it other than by mentorship. And yet, the entire population is more than happy to engage.
      - fragmede 5y ago
        > You charge people a lot of money for electricity, and then this motivates them to learn it. I challenge you to understand that, while this may seem reasonable to you, is not how humans operate. Especially in a household of multiple humans over which you have little/no direct control over, and multiple changes within a given month (the typical billing period for electricity). If you, your partner, your son, and your daughter have all gotten new, power hungry devices, and it's now also winter/snowing outside/aka the bill is expected to be high due to seasonal heating costs, and the a new, punitive rate plan has been put into effect, how could a non-technical consumer even start to address the change in electrical cost? Other than pay the now-exorbitant bill. Regulations are the answer for the real world where people live. We can debate what the regulations themselves should say, but expecting human nature to suddenly change and that everyone should want to get an EE degree in their free time, just because their electricity bill is mysteriously higher, is not how I would approach trying to effect large sweeping cultural changes. Not when we can't even get a quorum of people vaccinated.
- eigenvector 5y ago
  If people want to use less electricity, they need to have reasonable options to do so in the marketplace without needing a computer engineering degree to figure what sleep states their motherboard supports. That's one purpose of these regulatory mandates: to make the market more transparent and efficient. Consumers shouldn't have to waste time sorting through products that are broken from day 1 in non-obvious ways.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    > Consumers shouldn't have to waste time sorting through products that are broken from day 1 in non-obvious ways. They're broken via legislation, not any fundamental part of the product.
    - neolog 5y ago
      Hm? This is a computer that doesn't have a lower-power mode when you're not using it.
- ryan_lane 5y ago
  How do you know which computer you need to buy to lower your energy consumption, if there's no transparency around which ones use lower energy? The point of regulations like this is to make this clear, and to force companies to compete on features they'd otherwise not care about. The biggest problem with libertarian solutions is that they're regressive taxes, politically presented as "freedom".
  - _lazlo 5y ago
    Libertarians acknowledge the need for regulations. The importance is that they are stable and apply to everyone equally. Labels for food that list ingredients is great because it has been fair and stable as an example.
    - ryan_lane 5y ago
      The regulation being discussed is fair and stable and applies to everyone equally. Most appliances in your house are energy regulated; it's actually odd that computers are not. So, if anything you're arguing for the regulations discussed. "Letting the market decide" is not a form of regulation.
      - _lazlo 5y ago
        Maybe, I’m not am expert on this computer topic. I just wanted to highlight the libertarian opinion on regulations. The main goal of libertarians is to get prices to work. The alternative that i fear we are heading towards is price controls then mandated requirements for output. E.g produce 100 loafs of bread today that will sell for $1.00 or off to jail you go.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  Oh, just let The Free Market Fairy, solve our problems, eh? https://bitworking.org/news/2008/01/the-free-market-fairy/ https://bitworking.org/news/2008/01/the-free-market-fairy/
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    How is using taxes to get an outcome you want an example of the "free market"?
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      Parent comment explicitly invoked it: > raise taxes on electricity and the free market will sort it out.
omgitsabird 5y ago
This explains the definitions and gives example calculations: https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/computer/Version5.0_Computer_Spec.pdf?0f42-51d9 https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revi...
Proven 5y ago
It's not only unreasonable, it's outright idiotic. > They are limited to regulating the amount of power used while desktop systems are at idle, not while "in use". So what? If my PC is always "in use" (say, I use it as client and server - run my personal blog and other services on it), why should I not be able to buy and use it? Even if that weren't the case, it's none of government's business how I use electric energy. If a crappy power-saving PC works 15% slower and prices me out of video services market, who's going to compensate me for missed income? Taxpayers?
deviledeggs 5y ago
Totally unreasonable. A space heater uses 900-1800 watts. Slow cooker 250, TV 175, electric stove 4000, AC 1500, hair dryer 1500. Idling gaming PC? 70 maybe? That's the same as a couple lights. The average house uses 30kwh a day, so an idling gaming PC would be 0.25% of that. The regulation is insane. Gaming PC's probably use less than 0.05% of overall residential energy.

by shrike 5y ago

nradov 5y ago

There's nothing reasonable about these regulations. If we want people to use less electricity then raise taxes on electricity and the free market will sort it out. Power is fungible.

mr_toad 5y ago
They probably wasted more energy while drafting these laws than they’re going to save.
bko 5y ago
Taking a step back, I don't see how we got from a government's role is to protect citizens from foreign invasion to determining what kind of computers gamers can buy through some byzantine energy scoring system. If you mentioned this as a possibility ten or twenty years ago as a slippery slope argument, most people would have thought you're crazy.
- tafda 5y ago
  CAFE standards for automobile gas mileage have been around since 1975. Perhaps less a slippery slope and more the reality that America isn't a libertarian state?
  - deviledeggs 5y ago
    Emissions standards have also made it nearly impossible to repair your own vehicle, leading to tons of waste and extra expense. Car manufacturers like these regulations because they're an "eco friendly" way of banning self repairs.
- jsmith99 5y ago
  That's exactly the point - sleep states and efficiency is indeed 'byzantine' and I don't see how you expect individual purchasers to understand it. 'Byzantine' complicated things are exactly where regulation is needed to help.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    > sleep states and efficiency is indeed 'byzantine' and I don't see how you expect individual purchasers to understand it You charge people a lot of money for electricity, and then this motivates them to learn it. A lot of 'byzantine' things are routine. A lot of the rituals we do with computers today would seem incredibly bizarre, and difficult to a person from 200 years ago. For example, on PCs, I hit the 'return' key to make a new line. Or on most computers, Cmd/Ctrl-V is often used to paste things. What does the letter V have to do with pasting anything? It's completely arbitrary and byzantine and the knowledge is frankly rarely mentioned and it's unclear to me how anyone learns it other than by mentorship. And yet, the entire population is more than happy to engage.
    - fragmede 5y ago
      > You charge people a lot of money for electricity, and then this motivates them to learn it. I challenge you to understand that, while this may seem reasonable to you, is not how humans operate. Especially in a household of multiple humans over which you have little/no direct control over, and multiple changes within a given month (the typical billing period for electricity). If you, your partner, your son, and your daughter have all gotten new, power hungry devices, and it's now also winter/snowing outside/aka the bill is expected to be high due to seasonal heating costs, and the a new, punitive rate plan has been put into effect, how could a non-technical consumer even start to address the change in electrical cost? Other than pay the now-exorbitant bill. Regulations are the answer for the real world where people live. We can debate what the regulations themselves should say, but expecting human nature to suddenly change and that everyone should want to get an EE degree in their free time, just because their electricity bill is mysteriously higher, is not how I would approach trying to effect large sweeping cultural changes. Not when we can't even get a quorum of people vaccinated.
eigenvector 5y ago
If people want to use less electricity, they need to have reasonable options to do so in the marketplace without needing a computer engineering degree to figure what sleep states their motherboard supports. That's one purpose of these regulatory mandates: to make the market more transparent and efficient. Consumers shouldn't have to waste time sorting through products that are broken from day 1 in non-obvious ways.
- iammisc 5y ago
  > Consumers shouldn't have to waste time sorting through products that are broken from day 1 in non-obvious ways. They're broken via legislation, not any fundamental part of the product.
  - neolog 5y ago
    Hm? This is a computer that doesn't have a lower-power mode when you're not using it.
ryan_lane 5y ago
How do you know which computer you need to buy to lower your energy consumption, if there's no transparency around which ones use lower energy? The point of regulations like this is to make this clear, and to force companies to compete on features they'd otherwise not care about. The biggest problem with libertarian solutions is that they're regressive taxes, politically presented as "freedom".
- _lazlo 5y ago
  Libertarians acknowledge the need for regulations. The importance is that they are stable and apply to everyone equally. Labels for food that list ingredients is great because it has been fair and stable as an example.
  - ryan_lane 5y ago
    The regulation being discussed is fair and stable and applies to everyone equally. Most appliances in your house are energy regulated; it's actually odd that computers are not. So, if anything you're arguing for the regulations discussed. "Letting the market decide" is not a form of regulation.
    - _lazlo 5y ago
      Maybe, I’m not am expert on this computer topic. I just wanted to highlight the libertarian opinion on regulations. The main goal of libertarians is to get prices to work. The alternative that i fear we are heading towards is price controls then mandated requirements for output. E.g produce 100 loafs of bread today that will sell for $1.00 or off to jail you go.
cratermoon 5y ago
Oh, just let The Free Market Fairy, solve our problems, eh? https://bitworking.org/news/2008/01/the-free-market-fairy/ https://bitworking.org/news/2008/01/the-free-market-fairy/
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  How is using taxes to get an outcome you want an example of the "free market"?
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    Parent comment explicitly invoked it: > raise taxes on electricity and the free market will sort it out.

omgitsabird 5y ago

This explains the definitions and gives example calculations: https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revisions/downloads/computer/Version5.0_Computer_Spec.pdf?0f42-51d9 https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/revi...

Proven 5y ago

It's not only unreasonable, it's outright idiotic. > They are limited to regulating the amount of power used while desktop systems are at idle, not while "in use". So what? If my PC is always "in use" (say, I use it as client and server - run my personal blog and other services on it), why should I not be able to buy and use it? Even if that weren't the case, it's none of government's business how I use electric energy. If a crappy power-saving PC works 15% slower and prices me out of video services market, who's going to compensate me for missed income? Taxpayers?

deviledeggs 5y ago

Totally unreasonable. A space heater uses 900-1800 watts. Slow cooker 250, TV 175, electric stove 4000, AC 1500, hair dryer 1500. Idling gaming PC? 70 maybe? That's the same as a couple lights. The average house uses 30kwh a day, so an idling gaming PC would be 0.25% of that. The regulation is insane. Gaming PC's probably use less than 0.05% of overall residential energy.