3 ms·

How are they going to even know you took the vaccine? Honor system? If they force you to disclose doesn't that break HIPAA? If it doesn't break HIPAA, then does

How are they going to even know you took the vaccine? Honor system? If they force you to disclose doesn't that break HIPAA? If it doesn't break HIPAA, then doesn't this create a precedent that employers can gain your medical history with arbitrary mandates? Seems like a lose-lose.

mtoner23 5y ago
Hippa only applies to medical professionals i believe. Employers can always ask for your medical records. This has always been the case.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  really? huh, TIL.
- conductr 5y ago
  Extremely false. Hippa applies to all and is meant to protect people from discrimination on health matters. These policies will end up in court eventually and companies will argue the law moves too slowly for the concerns of the day and they had to make a decision they felt was best for safety of their employees.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    This is incorrect. HIPPA prevents sharing info without consent. If you choose to give the info to your employer, HIPPA doesn't apply.
    - conductr 5y ago
      Well of course you do get to choose to waive your rights to hippa protections, you can waive any right you want. But you do not have to give your records and they aren’t allowed to obtain them without your consent. They’re also not allowed to “punish” you for failing to provide your health records. In this context, someone in the office may get promoted and someone WFH may think they deserved it. So they’ll sue on grounds that vaccinated people in the office are receiving advantage. Not saying it’s right or wrong but prior to covid this type of thing was an HR/legal nightmare any company would steer clear of.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
        > Well of course you do get to choose to waive your rights to hippa protections, you can waive any right you want. It's not waiving your right to HIPAA protections, because HIPAA protections literally do not apply in this scenario. > 3028 - If my employer requires proof of my COVID-19 vaccination status, does that violate my rights under HIPAA? > In general, the HIPAA Rules do not apply to employers or employment records. HIPAA only applies to HIPAA covered entities – health care providers, health plans, and health care clearinghouses – and, to some extent, to their business associates. If an employer asks an employee to provide proof that they have been vaccinated, that is not a HIPAA violation, and employees may decide whether to provide that information to their employer. https://www.hhs.gov/answers/if-my-employer-requires-proof-of-my-covid-19-vaccination-status/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/answers/if-my-employer-requires-proof-of...
        conductr 5y ago
        Interesting. I have been on various meetings since the beginning of covid with general counsel telling us of all the pitfalls of hippa issues. I wonder if HHS published this specifically to promote clarification. It’s against the wide spread legal opinions that have circulated. Maybe the impending lawsuit is expensive enough that most attorneys are being overly conservative on the advice.
        TulliusCicero 5y ago
        I dunno what sources you've been looking at, but I haven't seen that for legal opinions from actually informed parties, only from anti-vaxxers and the like.
        conductr 5y ago
        It's pretty prevalent in corporate general counsel. I've heard the same thing from at least 5 company's I've worked at so I had never done my own research like you have. I figured it was truth. I do not think they are anti-vaxxers but they are conservative people that like to avoid litigation and I believe the laws were a bit ambiguous before this COVID specific clarification was issued by HHS. I've never heard of any employer asking for any health information of their employee unless it's like a doctor's note saying they were fit to work or something similarly vague. Prior to COVID, if you asked an employee for, say, proof of HIV negative. And they actually gave you proof of HIV positive. Anything that happens afterwards (termination, promoting another employee, denial of PTO, etc) the employee can sue you because they believe you are discriminating on their HIV status. IANAL and don't care to research it myself but I've heard this sentiment repeated countless times in meetings with senior HR and Legal executives, so I believe it true. All said, I do work in the healthcare industry. So maybe the HIPPA laws for our patients have been applied to our employees and there is some mixup around that. Either way, after 20 years in the industry this is news to me, appreciate the discourse.
  - esalman 5y ago
    It only applies to one's care providers. Source: I work with human subject data, have to take training each year.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Hippa applies to all and is meant to protect people from discrimination on health matters No, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) is not a workplace anti-discrimination act. You are, while also probably misunderstanding the lower-level details, confusing its basic purpose and function with something else, probably the Americans with Disabilities Act.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    you misunderstand this law. the law is confusing but the terms are well understood.
- ffggvv 5y ago
  so can employers for instance ask about HIV status and discriminate based on that?
  - majormajor 5y ago
    Some googling suggests this is already done for pornography.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Only if HIV status has a significant relevance to your ability to perform your job duties (including things like the safety of other workers, the public, etc., when your work.) Of course, unless your job involves something unusual like having sex with your coworkers or the public, that's not all that likely.
    - ffggvv 5y ago
      a lot of jobs like machinists often get cuts on the job that expose your blood
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > a lot of jobs like machinists often get cuts on the job that expose your blood And how many instances of person-to-person HIV transmissions have been caused by that kind of occupational exposure?
  - BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
    Is that something you've seen happening? Seems far-fetched to me, since you can't contract HIV simply by doing office work in the same room with HIV-positive co-workers.
    - ffggvv 5y ago
      yes, for machinists if they get a cut and have hiv all work needs to stop and the area needs to be sanitized
- fragmede 5y ago
  It might be worth noting that FAANG companies with huge campuses have medical offices on campus, so I'd assume employees aren't showing their proof of vaccination to a random person, but to some sort of medical professional who I'd think is bound by HIPPA.
majormajor 5y ago
The HIPAA privacy rule about sharing data without a patient's consent. It's not about stopping anyone from asking you anything. (It happens to carve out some reasons why sharing without consent might also be allowed, such as public health purposes, but that wouldn't even be necessary here.)
jkingsman 5y ago
HIPAA (not HIPPA) is only relevant in terms of your health care provider(s) disclosing information. A company is completely free to demand proof of vaccination records xor refuse to employ you (and as long as they're demanding it from you and not your health care provider [without your permission], there is no precedent being set here and HIPAA doesn't even enter the picture). As a general rule of thumb (barring some edge case exceptions), it is impossible for anyone but a health care provider to violate HIPAA. For examples, reporters reporting on someone's health conditions, sharing health information that was intended to be kept secret, or demanding proof of vaccination are not violating HIPAA. Plenty of industries demand vaccination (healthcare, childcare, etc.) as a prerequisite for employment; this is not a new model being implemented.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  interesting - I thought either HIPAA (thanks for the correction), FMLA or ADA protected employees from being asked about medical information that could result in they being discriminated against in regards to employment things.
  - majormajor 5y ago
    Yeah, it's not HIPAA, but employers are prevented from discriminating based on disability and required to provide accommodation for disability. I'm not confident anyone could successfully win a lawsuit claiming refusing a vaccine is a disability worth protecting there.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I thought either HIPAA (thanks for the correction), FMLA or ADA protected employees from being asked about medical information that could result in they being discriminated against in regards to employment things. ADA does for some things, but not all things. Vaccination status is apparently not among them, though many of the things that would be involved in a medical reason not to vaccinate are.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
delecti 5y ago
HIPAA (not HIPPA) mainly prevents medical professionals from sharing your medical information with others. It does nothing to prevent you from sharing your own medical information with anyone you choose. It also does nothing to prevent companies from establishing vaccine requirements as a condition for employment, or to protect your ability to keep your unvaccinated status private if a company has such a requirement. If presented with such a requirement, your options are to either get vaccinated and prove it, or seek employment elsewhere, and HIPAA doesn't give you a third option.
glenda 5y ago
Vaccine records are nothing new - I remember needing to get a meningitis vaccine to go to college 15 years ago.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> If they force you to disclose doesn't that break HIPPA? No, HIPAA prohibits, say, your insurer or medical provider (even if it is employer-funded) from disclosing info without your consent, including to your employer. It does not prohibit the employer asking and you disclosing it. Nor does it prohibit adverse consequences by the employer for your failure to disclose, or for the facts thereby disclosed (though, for some medical information, the ADA or other law might do that.)
dekhn 5y ago
Here's a quick comparison of HIPAA and HIPPA (what you original said) that will help clear up the confusion. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3dxHFYVcAAM3V8?format=png&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3dxHFYVcAAM3V8?format=png&name=... I don't understand why so many people are obsessed how the company can find out whether you got the vaccine. I mean, as an employee you could lie or otherwise misrepresent your status and probably get away with it, at least for a short time, before they terminated your employment.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  > I don't understand why so many people are obsessed how the company can find out whether you got the vaccine. I mean, as an employee you could lie or otherwise misrepresent your status and probably get away with it, at least for a short time, before they terminated your employment. It's not about the vaccine - it's about the normalization of employers knowing your medical history. Personally I wouldn't care if I was asked as I've taken the vaccine and would say so. However I can understand why people might be concerned about employers demanding proof.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    So... you're willing to have millions of people die to protect some employees from having their employer knowing their medical history? From what I can see, companies are doing this to reduce their exposure to legal risk from employee-employee infection in the office.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      > So... you're willing to have millions of people die to protect some employees from having their employer knowing their medical history? What's the point of this question? I never said that to begin with. > From what I can see, companies are doing this to reduce their exposure to legal risk from employee-employee infection in the office. This doesn't make any sense as vaccinated people can and do transmit the delta variant. Mandatory work from home would be the solution to that.

mtoner23 5y ago

Hippa only applies to medical professionals i believe. Employers can always ask for your medical records. This has always been the case.

endisneigh 5y ago
really? huh, TIL.
conductr 5y ago
Extremely false. Hippa applies to all and is meant to protect people from discrimination on health matters. These policies will end up in court eventually and companies will argue the law moves too slowly for the concerns of the day and they had to make a decision they felt was best for safety of their employees.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  This is incorrect. HIPPA prevents sharing info without consent. If you choose to give the info to your employer, HIPPA doesn't apply.
  - conductr 5y ago
    Well of course you do get to choose to waive your rights to hippa protections, you can waive any right you want. But you do not have to give your records and they aren’t allowed to obtain them without your consent. They’re also not allowed to “punish” you for failing to provide your health records. In this context, someone in the office may get promoted and someone WFH may think they deserved it. So they’ll sue on grounds that vaccinated people in the office are receiving advantage. Not saying it’s right or wrong but prior to covid this type of thing was an HR/legal nightmare any company would steer clear of.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      > Well of course you do get to choose to waive your rights to hippa protections, you can waive any right you want. It's not waiving your right to HIPAA protections, because HIPAA protections literally do not apply in this scenario. > 3028 - If my employer requires proof of my COVID-19 vaccination status, does that violate my rights under HIPAA? > In general, the HIPAA Rules do not apply to employers or employment records. HIPAA only applies to HIPAA covered entities – health care providers, health plans, and health care clearinghouses – and, to some extent, to their business associates. If an employer asks an employee to provide proof that they have been vaccinated, that is not a HIPAA violation, and employees may decide whether to provide that information to their employer. https://www.hhs.gov/answers/if-my-employer-requires-proof-of-my-covid-19-vaccination-status/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/answers/if-my-employer-requires-proof-of...
      - conductr 5y ago
        Interesting. I have been on various meetings since the beginning of covid with general counsel telling us of all the pitfalls of hippa issues. I wonder if HHS published this specifically to promote clarification. It’s against the wide spread legal opinions that have circulated. Maybe the impending lawsuit is expensive enough that most attorneys are being overly conservative on the advice.
        TulliusCicero 5y ago
        I dunno what sources you've been looking at, but I haven't seen that for legal opinions from actually informed parties, only from anti-vaxxers and the like.
        conductr 5y ago
        It's pretty prevalent in corporate general counsel. I've heard the same thing from at least 5 company's I've worked at so I had never done my own research like you have. I figured it was truth. I do not think they are anti-vaxxers but they are conservative people that like to avoid litigation and I believe the laws were a bit ambiguous before this COVID specific clarification was issued by HHS. I've never heard of any employer asking for any health information of their employee unless it's like a doctor's note saying they were fit to work or something similarly vague. Prior to COVID, if you asked an employee for, say, proof of HIV negative. And they actually gave you proof of HIV positive. Anything that happens afterwards (termination, promoting another employee, denial of PTO, etc) the employee can sue you because they believe you are discriminating on their HIV status. IANAL and don't care to research it myself but I've heard this sentiment repeated countless times in meetings with senior HR and Legal executives, so I believe it true. All said, I do work in the healthcare industry. So maybe the HIPPA laws for our patients have been applied to our employees and there is some mixup around that. Either way, after 20 years in the industry this is news to me, appreciate the discourse.
- esalman 5y ago
  It only applies to one's care providers. Source: I work with human subject data, have to take training each year.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Hippa applies to all and is meant to protect people from discrimination on health matters No, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) is not a workplace anti-discrimination act. You are, while also probably misunderstanding the lower-level details, confusing its basic purpose and function with something else, probably the Americans with Disabilities Act.
- dekhn 5y ago
  you misunderstand this law. the law is confusing but the terms are well understood.
ffggvv 5y ago
so can employers for instance ask about HIV status and discriminate based on that?
- majormajor 5y ago
  Some googling suggests this is already done for pornography.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Only if HIV status has a significant relevance to your ability to perform your job duties (including things like the safety of other workers, the public, etc., when your work.) Of course, unless your job involves something unusual like having sex with your coworkers or the public, that's not all that likely.
  - ffggvv 5y ago
    a lot of jobs like machinists often get cuts on the job that expose your blood
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > a lot of jobs like machinists often get cuts on the job that expose your blood And how many instances of person-to-person HIV transmissions have been caused by that kind of occupational exposure?
- BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
  Is that something you've seen happening? Seems far-fetched to me, since you can't contract HIV simply by doing office work in the same room with HIV-positive co-workers.
  - ffggvv 5y ago
    yes, for machinists if they get a cut and have hiv all work needs to stop and the area needs to be sanitized
fragmede 5y ago
It might be worth noting that FAANG companies with huge campuses have medical offices on campus, so I'd assume employees aren't showing their proof of vaccination to a random person, but to some sort of medical professional who I'd think is bound by HIPPA.

majormajor 5y ago

The HIPAA privacy rule about sharing data without a patient's consent. It's not about stopping anyone from asking you anything. (It happens to carve out some reasons why sharing without consent might also be allowed, such as public health purposes, but that wouldn't even be necessary here.)

jkingsman 5y ago

HIPAA (not HIPPA) is only relevant in terms of your health care provider(s) disclosing information. A company is completely free to demand proof of vaccination records xor refuse to employ you (and as long as they're demanding it from you and not your health care provider [without your permission], there is no precedent being set here and HIPAA doesn't even enter the picture). As a general rule of thumb (barring some edge case exceptions), it is impossible for anyone but a health care provider to violate HIPAA. For examples, reporters reporting on someone's health conditions, sharing health information that was intended to be kept secret, or demanding proof of vaccination are not violating HIPAA. Plenty of industries demand vaccination (healthcare, childcare, etc.) as a prerequisite for employment; this is not a new model being implemented.

endisneigh 5y ago
interesting - I thought either HIPAA (thanks for the correction), FMLA or ADA protected employees from being asked about medical information that could result in they being discriminated against in regards to employment things.
- majormajor 5y ago
  Yeah, it's not HIPAA, but employers are prevented from discriminating based on disability and required to provide accommodation for disability. I'm not confident anyone could successfully win a lawsuit claiming refusing a vaccine is a disability worth protecting there.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I thought either HIPAA (thanks for the correction), FMLA or ADA protected employees from being asked about medical information that could result in they being discriminated against in regards to employment things. ADA does for some things, but not all things. Vaccination status is apparently not among them, though many of the things that would be involved in a medical reason not to vaccinate are.
  - endisneigh 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

delecti 5y ago

HIPAA (not HIPPA) mainly prevents medical professionals from sharing your medical information with others. It does nothing to prevent you from sharing your own medical information with anyone you choose. It also does nothing to prevent companies from establishing vaccine requirements as a condition for employment, or to protect your ability to keep your unvaccinated status private if a company has such a requirement. If presented with such a requirement, your options are to either get vaccinated and prove it, or seek employment elsewhere, and HIPAA doesn't give you a third option.

glenda 5y ago

Vaccine records are nothing new - I remember needing to get a meningitis vaccine to go to college 15 years ago.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> If they force you to disclose doesn't that break HIPPA? No, HIPAA prohibits, say, your insurer or medical provider (even if it is employer-funded) from disclosing info without your consent, including to your employer. It does not prohibit the employer asking and you disclosing it. Nor does it prohibit adverse consequences by the employer for your failure to disclose, or for the facts thereby disclosed (though, for some medical information, the ADA or other law might do that.)

dekhn 5y ago

Here's a quick comparison of HIPAA and HIPPA (what you original said) that will help clear up the confusion. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3dxHFYVcAAM3V8?format=png&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3dxHFYVcAAM3V8?format=png&name=... I don't understand why so many people are obsessed how the company can find out whether you got the vaccine. I mean, as an employee you could lie or otherwise misrepresent your status and probably get away with it, at least for a short time, before they terminated your employment.

endisneigh 5y ago
> I don't understand why so many people are obsessed how the company can find out whether you got the vaccine. I mean, as an employee you could lie or otherwise misrepresent your status and probably get away with it, at least for a short time, before they terminated your employment. It's not about the vaccine - it's about the normalization of employers knowing your medical history. Personally I wouldn't care if I was asked as I've taken the vaccine and would say so. However I can understand why people might be concerned about employers demanding proof.
- dekhn 5y ago
  So... you're willing to have millions of people die to protect some employees from having their employer knowing their medical history? From what I can see, companies are doing this to reduce their exposure to legal risk from employee-employee infection in the office.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    > So... you're willing to have millions of people die to protect some employees from having their employer knowing their medical history? What's the point of this question? I never said that to begin with. > From what I can see, companies are doing this to reduce their exposure to legal risk from employee-employee infection in the office. This doesn't make any sense as vaccinated people can and do transmit the delta variant. Mandatory work from home would be the solution to that.