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I’m estranged from my dad. I’m not sure the argument of individualism of the child is at fault, so much as the individualism of the parent. My dad barely gradu

I’m estranged from my dad. I’m not sure the argument of individualism of the child is at fault, so much as the individualism of the parent. My dad barely graduated high school and made a very nice living for himself. If anything is wrong with my life/anything goes poorly/I don’t have enough money for a house/vacation, it is because I am morally subpar and do not have a good enough relationship with Jesus. I have a lot of older brother’s, a few who were in their 20’s in the crash of 2008 and I was in high school watching their lives go to shit. Attempting to get my dad to help me with anything (supporting me in programs/sports I wanted to take on in high school, getting money to apply to additional colleges) was met with derision. His thought process was that education is superfluous, you need to work hard and show-up and that’s it. While both are things you need to do, it is not enough. Myself and another sibling do not have a relationship with him, the other few do have a relationship but it is severely strained. His rugged opinions of America and how to make it have alienated everyone around him. Even telling him these things 15+ years ago was not enough to get him to look at the world a different way. I very much think the way older and younger generations view and experience the world are the main contributors to this massive schism.

llamataboot 5y ago
I have definitely seen kids cut off toxic parents way way more than I have the reverse.
- scld 5y ago
  That makes a lot of sense to me. On average, the specific kind of love and care a parent provides to their child is a one way street, meant to be paid forward. Of course care of an elderly parent can reverse this relationship, but that's less universal than the standard parent/child relationship.
pasabagi 5y ago
I think this is a generational fault line that's pretty common even in good relationships. Older generations could get by making way less pragmatic choices. Many of the older generation graduated into an economy where the default state was almost full employment. Long term unemployment, or being stuck in a dead-end job, was for losers. So even nice parents often look at their kids and think their kids are losers or doing something wrong because everybody they grew up with who had the kind of problems their kids have were really dysfunctional people.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  If you're not from the kind of family where kids goes to college is going to college and trying to get an office job the pragmatic choice? Unless you have some very good reason to think you'll be the exception odds are you'll just wind up with a few wasted years and a partial degree. Busting your ass as a plumber with the goal of eventually being the guy that owns the business (or whatever) can be the pragmatic choice.
  - elipsey 5y ago
    Are plumbers licensed? Should I assume that just anyone can become a plumber? Licensed trades have gatekeepers, e.g., my high-school friend couldn't be an electrician because he couldn't get a union internship. They were full and he didn't know anyone important. Also, I believe that the licensing required the completion of course work. I have never had a job that didn't require college and also paid more than rent. It seems a strong assumption that there are ready alternatives which pay a subsistence or higher wage. Of course it is also a strong assumption that higher education will necessarily result in a subsistance or higher wage, but my point is that it seems unfounded to simply assume that there is a reliable practicable alternative just because there used to be. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who didn't go to college and can reliably pay rent by themselves, and I know lots of people who didn't go to college.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Could get by provided they had the right skin. If you read American novels up to about 1960 and pay attention to those high-melanin people you'll see a lot of "being stuck in a dead-end job".
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    That's true. I'm not American, didn't really think of the racial aspect of american social welfare. I think that's a bit more muted in europe, although it's still there.
curation 5y ago
I left home at 15; my story is complex, but abusive stepfather is the quick summary. It was the best thing I ever did. He forbade my mother and sister from seeing me and so I have not seen my mother who remains with him. I did meet my sister again, who had moved to England, 5 years ago. She is 9 years younger than me so we did not recognize eachother. She still is in contact with them and suffers anxiety and depression. I did years of therapy and healed via my work ( horror film maker/writer ). I have sisters and parents now that are not blood, but they mean more to me in a way because they are not obligated by social norms to support me. I hope that one day, when my stepfather is dead, I can again see my mother before she is. She is an interesting and brilliant person, but my connection to her is more like an old friend who I sadly fell out with.
- fzzzy 5y ago
  Wow, healing this type of thing by writing horror. Thank you. I never really liked horror, but having experienced childhood trauma I think I understand how it helped you and may help me. Thanks. I really wish more people would actively create non-blood family. I had this once and it helped me tremendously. Seems I need to cultivate that again, but it is much harder where I live now.
  - curation 5y ago
    My relationship with horror, I associate with my childhood asthma. We did not have drug coverage so I did not have inhalers so from 4 I'd be up all night (1970s) watching TV. Horror movies were the only thing that distracted me, filled me with adrenaline, to unspiral my attacks. I was very allergic to cats; my stepfather's coke buddy had two Persian cats. The strangers who took me fomented in me hope for people in a way that I never would have had given my upbringing. Also, my mother was Lacanian child psych major and raised me without a Big Other etc. Told me, when I asked about church weddings on TV soap operas, what is it and she told me that it was just a silly TV thing. I believed this until I was fairly old. Cities - for example Toronto where I lived for 20 years - were hard to make friends in. At the same time, if you have always been urban, rural areas can be hard to parse socially. I really appreciate the non-judgment on horror. Thank you.
aidenn0 5y ago
The point of TFA is that if you weren't individualistic, you would maintain an unhealthy relationship with your dad out of a sense of obligation. There are many cultures in which if your dad thinks you should be unhappy, then how dare you try to be (unilaterally) happy...
- staticman2 5y ago
  The article doesn't go into it but flipping things around I wonder if an individualistic culture can cause bad parenting? If I'm from a culture where three generations are living under the same roof, I'd imagine people are socialized to try to get along more out of necessity since they have to divide the house without strangling each other. But that can also mean the parents are socialized to fight with their kids less.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Parents raising kids with an expectation of a reciprocal obligation in an individualistic culture certainly doesn't work (see any 1st generation immigrants from such cultures). I do think though, that parents raising kids with the expectation that the children be individualistic can cause issues, particularly now that we aren't in a post-war economic boom that can broadly support this (kids are often made to feel ashamed for living with their parents). The culture will adapt eventually and lots of kids will get messed up in the meantime.
wedowhatwedo 5y ago
Religion is causing serious harm to many families. I kind of have a relationship with my parents but I know my opinions are not welcome on politics and religion. They know their opinions are 100% infallible and I'm completely wrong. We've kept it a secret that their step-grand-son is gay because then I may have to make a choice between my step-son and my parents and my parents won't like the decision I'll make. At least they aren't part of one of the many sects that require disconnection from all those that don't agree. I encourage people to support their local LGTBQ support organizations because some religious parents tell their LGTBQ kids that they are not welcome at home at a young age because they were born LGTBQ. It's very sad.
mixmastamyk 5y ago
In the old days you only needed to save a few (yes a few) thousand to buy a house. Now that generation prevents the rest of us the same, through housing scarcity and zero interest rates.

llamataboot 5y ago

I have definitely seen kids cut off toxic parents way way more than I have the reverse.

scld 5y ago
That makes a lot of sense to me. On average, the specific kind of love and care a parent provides to their child is a one way street, meant to be paid forward. Of course care of an elderly parent can reverse this relationship, but that's less universal than the standard parent/child relationship.

pasabagi 5y ago

I think this is a generational fault line that's pretty common even in good relationships. Older generations could get by making way less pragmatic choices. Many of the older generation graduated into an economy where the default state was almost full employment. Long term unemployment, or being stuck in a dead-end job, was for losers. So even nice parents often look at their kids and think their kids are losers or doing something wrong because everybody they grew up with who had the kind of problems their kids have were really dysfunctional people.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
If you're not from the kind of family where kids goes to college is going to college and trying to get an office job the pragmatic choice? Unless you have some very good reason to think you'll be the exception odds are you'll just wind up with a few wasted years and a partial degree. Busting your ass as a plumber with the goal of eventually being the guy that owns the business (or whatever) can be the pragmatic choice.
- elipsey 5y ago
  Are plumbers licensed? Should I assume that just anyone can become a plumber? Licensed trades have gatekeepers, e.g., my high-school friend couldn't be an electrician because he couldn't get a union internship. They were full and he didn't know anyone important. Also, I believe that the licensing required the completion of course work. I have never had a job that didn't require college and also paid more than rent. It seems a strong assumption that there are ready alternatives which pay a subsistence or higher wage. Of course it is also a strong assumption that higher education will necessarily result in a subsistance or higher wage, but my point is that it seems unfounded to simply assume that there is a reliable practicable alternative just because there used to be. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who didn't go to college and can reliably pay rent by themselves, and I know lots of people who didn't go to college.
Arnt 5y ago
Could get by provided they had the right skin. If you read American novels up to about 1960 and pay attention to those high-melanin people you'll see a lot of "being stuck in a dead-end job".
- pasabagi 5y ago
  That's true. I'm not American, didn't really think of the racial aspect of american social welfare. I think that's a bit more muted in europe, although it's still there.

curation 5y ago

I left home at 15; my story is complex, but abusive stepfather is the quick summary. It was the best thing I ever did. He forbade my mother and sister from seeing me and so I have not seen my mother who remains with him. I did meet my sister again, who had moved to England, 5 years ago. She is 9 years younger than me so we did not recognize eachother. She still is in contact with them and suffers anxiety and depression. I did years of therapy and healed via my work ( horror film maker/writer ). I have sisters and parents now that are not blood, but they mean more to me in a way because they are not obligated by social norms to support me. I hope that one day, when my stepfather is dead, I can again see my mother before she is. She is an interesting and brilliant person, but my connection to her is more like an old friend who I sadly fell out with.

fzzzy 5y ago
Wow, healing this type of thing by writing horror. Thank you. I never really liked horror, but having experienced childhood trauma I think I understand how it helped you and may help me. Thanks. I really wish more people would actively create non-blood family. I had this once and it helped me tremendously. Seems I need to cultivate that again, but it is much harder where I live now.
- curation 5y ago
  My relationship with horror, I associate with my childhood asthma. We did not have drug coverage so I did not have inhalers so from 4 I'd be up all night (1970s) watching TV. Horror movies were the only thing that distracted me, filled me with adrenaline, to unspiral my attacks. I was very allergic to cats; my stepfather's coke buddy had two Persian cats. The strangers who took me fomented in me hope for people in a way that I never would have had given my upbringing. Also, my mother was Lacanian child psych major and raised me without a Big Other etc. Told me, when I asked about church weddings on TV soap operas, what is it and she told me that it was just a silly TV thing. I believed this until I was fairly old. Cities - for example Toronto where I lived for 20 years - were hard to make friends in. At the same time, if you have always been urban, rural areas can be hard to parse socially. I really appreciate the non-judgment on horror. Thank you.

aidenn0 5y ago

The point of TFA is that if you weren't individualistic, you would maintain an unhealthy relationship with your dad out of a sense of obligation. There are many cultures in which if your dad thinks you should be unhappy, then how dare you try to be (unilaterally) happy...

staticman2 5y ago
The article doesn't go into it but flipping things around I wonder if an individualistic culture can cause bad parenting? If I'm from a culture where three generations are living under the same roof, I'd imagine people are socialized to try to get along more out of necessity since they have to divide the house without strangling each other. But that can also mean the parents are socialized to fight with their kids less.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Parents raising kids with an expectation of a reciprocal obligation in an individualistic culture certainly doesn't work (see any 1st generation immigrants from such cultures). I do think though, that parents raising kids with the expectation that the children be individualistic can cause issues, particularly now that we aren't in a post-war economic boom that can broadly support this (kids are often made to feel ashamed for living with their parents). The culture will adapt eventually and lots of kids will get messed up in the meantime.

wedowhatwedo 5y ago

Religion is causing serious harm to many families. I kind of have a relationship with my parents but I know my opinions are not welcome on politics and religion. They know their opinions are 100% infallible and I'm completely wrong. We've kept it a secret that their step-grand-son is gay because then I may have to make a choice between my step-son and my parents and my parents won't like the decision I'll make. At least they aren't part of one of the many sects that require disconnection from all those that don't agree. I encourage people to support their local LGTBQ support organizations because some religious parents tell their LGTBQ kids that they are not welcome at home at a young age because they were born LGTBQ. It's very sad.

mixmastamyk 5y ago

In the old days you only needed to save a few (yes a few) thousand to buy a house. Now that generation prevents the rest of us the same, through housing scarcity and zero interest rates.