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High-End Gaming PCs Banned in Six US States
- robertwt7 5y agoI.. don't know what to say with this rule Wait, what about people who already own the high end gaming pc?
- risyachka 5y agoIt looks like this ban tries to fix the symptoms, not the problem itself. Also, is there any data that backs this? Like what % of total grid load goes to such PCs?
- garyfirestorm 5y agoYeah. PCs which consume high power when in idle state.
- lalaland1125 5y agoWhich includes a lot of PCs with beefy GPUs. Nvidia in particular has a lot of issues with idle power usage for their cards.
- speedgoose 5y agoSo Nvidia will finally fix the issue worldwide thanks to this local law.
- Synaesthesia 5y agoThey're really good these days. The fan even switches off entirely when not gaming.
- tapland 5y agoHow is that determined? Few PCs draw much power when idle. A dual-monitor flat screen setup probably draws more than most idle computers (but yet not in power saving state).
- SilverRed 5y agoThis is for prebuilt machines. Seems pretty easy to test. Turn the thing on, put it in sleep mode, then record the power draw from the PC PSU. Monitors are not included.
- Bancakes 5y agoYou'll see the Dieselgate of PCs. It's very efficient and underclocked while being tested, but when a customer registers the product with the website, the driver app installs the normal performance profiles.
- Dylan16807 5y agoIf the computer can easily underclock when idle... why stop doing that?
- Bancakes 5y agoBecause "idle" is not well defined for manufacturers. For instance, core parking is a thing.
- Dylan16807 5y agoAs long as it's trying to trigger on idle, I don't see how it would ever cause me a problem. If the CPU load is sufficiently low for cores to park, then let them. If you want to disable core parking when not idle, that's fine, but it wouldn't even affect the measurements taken by this law.
- SilverRed 5y agoIdle is pretty well defined. It's when you close the lid of the laptop or hit suspend. The CPU stops running entirely and ram is given some power to persist data.
- tapland 5y agoRecord and compare to what? I was asking how it was determined, but it seems you read half of a proper explanation?
- NavinF 5y agoStill a very annoying law because it prevents you from enabling stuff like wake-on-lan on modern PCs. You have to turn off all the power compliance toggles in the BIOS or it will power off the NIC and break a bunch of other stuff. If the vendor doesn't let you disable compliance mode, you're SoL. Idle PCs consume roughly 0% of the country's energy. If they wanna reduce it anyway, they should put an energy star sticker on computers so people can save money with more efficient machines.
- spauka 5y agoThat is not accurate - take a look at Page 9 of the product compliance datasheet: https://downloads.dell.com/rdoc/dell%20alienware%20ryzen%20edition%20d23m%20d23m004%20dell%20regulatory%20and%20environmental%20datasheet%20en-us.pdf https://downloads.dell.com/rdoc/dell%20alienware%20ryzen%20e... WOL and similar features do not change power consumption and this is not where the listed PC's fail. They fail on idle/standby power consumption and to be clear - there is NO reason they have to. Similar spec'd PC's can be purchased that meet these requirements.
- NavinF 5y agoHmm I assumed that this was similar to the EU reg which did lead to NICs being turned off even when you have WoL enabled. The NIC definitely affects idle power consumption and I would not be surprised if vendors take the path of least resistance (disabling features that are only used by "power users") until their hardware meets the requirements. I'm sure similar PCs meet the requirements, and I'm also sure they're more expensive on average because they are newer. Too bad consumers are not allowed to make choises for themselves.
- SilverRed 5y agoWhy can you not use wake on lan? Apple devices still have full networking capabilities while using less than 1w. It doesn't take over 11w to wake on lan unless the firmware is insanely inefficient. This law will get mobo vendors to fix their products causing power savings world wide.
- ReaLNero 5y agoTo reduce emissions, they've started targeting the gaming industry? The meat industry emits orders of magnitude more pollution (even relative to the number of users of each)! Obviously, politicians would lose favor for targeting the meat industry, and thus have avoided fixing measures which would actually reduce emissions. > They list consoles with taking a bulk of the emissions at 66%, and desktop computers at 31%. In spite of this, consoles are seemingly exempt from the bill. My guess is the exemption is to tend to corporate interests? Absurd. This bill does nothing to target Bitcoin mining (these people custom-build machines anyway). Thoughtless bill through-and-through. Perhaps this will make more kids build their own PCs, and thus fall in love with computing. Pointless hurdles like this kickstart a hacker's journey. A silver lining at last.
- NoPicklez 5y agoCompletely agree.
- onion2k 5y agoMy guess is the exemption is to tend to corporate interests? Absurd. Its a law about how much energy PCs can use. Consoles aren't exempt; they're just not PCs. They'd probably be allowed anyway because the law is about how much energy is used when the machine is idle, and consoles are pretty efficient when they're not doing much.
- ReaLNero 5y ago> Its a law about how much energy PCs can use. Consoles aren't exempt; they're just not PCs. I don't understand what distinction you're making -- the Earth is getting polluted all the same. It's still an exemption. Consoles would likely still be allowed -- but that's more fair and future-proof.
- onion2k 5y agoI don't understand what distinction you're making -- the Earth is getting polluted all the same. It's still an exemption. That's not how laws work. For something to be exempt there would need to be a clause that specifically states "Consoles can pollute as much as they like". There isn't such a clause. Saying they're exempt is like saying cars are exempt from the EPA's Cleaner Trucks Initiative (https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/cleaner-trucks-initiative https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin...). They're not exempt, they're just not trucks.
- jimbob45 5y agoI fail to see how a progressive residential energy tax wouldn’t have been the better option but I’m super jacked to see progress being made, even if it is a tad misguided.
- fridif 5y ago"I am super jacked to see progress being made in controlling the moral failings of certain humans, even if it has to be through banning the sale of alcohol nationwide."
- tehjoker 5y agoAlcohol is a good that is enjoyed by huge numbers of people for pleasure and to escape pain. It can also be produced from basically any foodstuff that contains starch. I don't think high power PCs fits into the same category.
- kennywinker 5y agoI fail to see how this is an attack on people’s moral failings. PC makers can improve their idle energy usage and get back into the market. This seems no different from regulating the efficiency or emissions of fridges.
- pedroma 5y agoThen people will just buy more gasoline cars.
- mantas 5y agoThere’s a residential energy tax called monthly energy bill. What is best, people are taxed on usage. Consume more - pay more. If it’s too low, just slap extra per-kwh tax on top. Like for gas.
- fridif 5y agoIt feels wrong to ban the sale of a product on the basis that "it might be used on the electrical grid". There is nothing stopping me from buying a PC and running it on my own off grid solution. If the power companies don't like my power consumption, they should simply implement solutions on their end, like charging me more money proportional to my usage.
- pedroma 5y agoPower companies do like your power consumption. It's the state that doesn't, but they also want you to keep buying electric cars.
- tehjoker 5y agoYou can build it yourself then. They're banning complete packages which is much more likely to reduce grid power consumption.
- Meandering 5y agoIt seems that charging a premium on energy use beyond a certain threshold would be far more effective. The carbon-cost of investigating high-end consumer electronics might actually be more than the few PCs that would be purchased.
- TheMightyLlama 5y agoSimilar to how broadband is charged? On the flipside of that, energy users could also have their energy throttled based on the number of consumers in the household. You have x energy credits as part of the package, if you don't want to pay over that then your energy will, of course, be throttled.
- frostburg 5y agoIn this specific instance the consumer is being done a favor by being prevented from buying terrible prebuilts, but the law is absurd.
- colordrops 5y agoWhat's wrong with the prebuilts? Price vs performance?
- arc-in-space 5y agoPrice vs... price. You can nearly always build a more suitable PC for cheaper(potentially with the extra steps of paying someone to build it for you). Though recently I've heard of a distortion where apparently due to high GPU prices, some prebuilds' value was more fair.
- paavohtl 5y agoThat, but also: - Low quality parts - Bad build quality - Incompatible & proprietary motherboards, coolers and power supplies - Bizarre part choices, like severely underpowered cooling and power delivery or using just 1 stick of RAM when 2 sticks would be significantly faster with about the same amount of money - Windows installation filled with unwanted software and/or outright malware, like McAfee, which can have a double-digit % effect on game performance. - The purchase process can involve dark patterns, like cleverly hidden support contracts with a monthly fee The PC hardware channel Gamers Nexus has been reviewing prebuilt systems for past few months [1]. None of the reviewed computers have been great, and the ones from big manufacturers (namely Dell and Alienware) have been the worst of the bunch. [1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsuVSmND84QuM2HKzG7ipbIbE_R5EnCLM https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsuVSmND84QuM2HKzG7ip...
- hellotomyrars 5y agoYou pay more for less than if you did it yourself and it isn't hard to find where they've cut corners to lower their costs. But also critically the people buying pre-builts are obviously not interested in doing it themselves. That is why the market exists, right? So like its fun for more serious people to dunk on them in Youtube videos or whatever but I think its something pretty overblown. Also if you're really willing to spend some money, there are plenty of Boutique vendors (Falcon Northwest) that will gladly sell you a capable and well-built computer.
- Hard_Space 5y agoMore detailed information: https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
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- onion2k 5y agoPrevious discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27954946 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27954946 The top comment explains why this is probably a good thing.
- mlindner 5y agoAnd the response explains why that comment is wrong: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27957381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27957381
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- Dylan16807 5y agoThe exact math was off, but high end gaming PCs are still not being banned.
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- leereeves 5y agoThe important dispute isn't about the calculations, but whether the limits only apply to sleep mode (as claimed by the first comment) or also to yearly maximum power consumption (and thus to power consumption during active use).
- Dylan16807 5y agoIf they applied to active use it would effectively outlaw computers entirely. That interpretation doesn't make sense. There's some uncertainty with various forms of idle and sleep but that's a much smaller worry.
- philipkglass 5y agoThe response cites a table showing that desktop PCs sold after 2021-07-01 must consume no more than 75 kilowatt hours per year (base rate, with adders allowed for some features). 75 kWh/year is only 8.6 watts of continuous power draw. Even a basic budget desktop will drastically exceed 8.6 W if it's on continuously with significant load, like running folding@home. Since practically every desktop computer can draw more than 8.6 watts and sales of only a few computer models are restricted, I conclude that the restrictions are not about power consumption in the fully active state.
- gillytech 5y agoAll dark blue states. California, Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington. Pointless vote-grabbing bills are pushed to get headlines and signal the lawmakers virtuosity. Makes me think of the plastic bag "tax" in LA.
- colechristensen 5y agoThe plastic bag "tax" means I use the same number of pastic bags bug now I pay an extra few nickles when I go to the store and the bags I use and dispose of contain much more plastic than they did previously. I don't know who won there but it isn't me, the environment, or the retailer.
- hellotomyrars 5y agoWhy not just bring your own? Like, serious question. I didn't do it until I had to but I can fit more crap in my own bags, and they're not going to break on me when I carry them up the stairs. Its kind of just better.
- colechristensen 5y agoBecause I don't want to have a collection of wadded up bags with me at all times? I don't know ahead of time how many bags I might need. Bags always seem to get dirty in one way or another. The amount of carbon dioxide I exhale from being a living human while shopping is roughly the same as the shopping bags would emit if I burned them when I got home from the store. (which is much much less than if I drive even a short distance to the store) The plastic in the supply chain getting things to the store is of ridiculously larger magnitude. I reuse a fraction of the bags I get for various extra jobs usually revolving around waste or odds and ends uses which I otherwise would have to purchase bags for specifically. In short, bringing my own bags is usually more of a hassle (though I do on occasion for one reason or another) and by every metric I can think of, not using disposable plastic bags is a meaningless gesture.
- bradlys 5y ago
- chroem- 5y agoAt a minimum, at least this is ideologically consistent with wanting to ban bitcoin, since both consume approximately the same order of magnitude of energy.
- Synaesthesia 5y agoYes but gaming PC's are far more useful
- chroem- 5y agoAre they? With cryptocurrencies I can at least conduct commerce. With gaming PCs, I can... play violent videogames?
- dageshi 5y agoyes, the violent video games are fun, life is also about having fun.
- xgbi 5y agoYou can create an entire VFX short film with an high end pc. You can simulate fluid mechanics and invent a new revolutionary propulsion system for aircrafts with an high end Pc. You can train a NN to recognize perilous situation from webcam footage and distribute the weights freely on GitHub With a HPC. There are Miriam of things you can do with a powerful computer. This law is stupid, a single EV recharge consumes 100x more than a HPC every single second.
- chroem- 5y agoDo the majority of gaming PC owners spend most of their time doing those tasks though? I think if the answer were yes, we would be discussing VFX and ML workstations, not "gaming" PCs. If we can legislate less environmentally harmful ways of doing commerce, why can't we legislate less environmentally harmful forms of entertainment? This is simply the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.
- TameAntelope 5y agoAre there any restrictions on the purchase of individual computer parts, or restrictions on assembling those parts for a fee? What about the import of those parts, or a whole high-end gaming PC from out of state, post sale? Would leaving the state explicitly to purchase a high powered gaming PC be illegal? A federal crime? This just feels nominal and designed to send a message, but I genuinely don't understand that message. Gaming is bad because it hurts the environment? That's not right... So many questions, and I'm suspecting there are fewer answers.
- NoPicklez 5y agoHaving dived deeper, this is under the tier 1 requirements under California's energy efficiency limits. Which the California Energy Commission (CEC) noted to adopt tighter appliance energy standards. However from December 2021, "computers with high-speed networking capability, multi-screen notebooks, notebooks with cyclical behavior, and monitors with high refresh rates" will be covered by the rules" under tier 2 requirements. That is ridiculous.
- bayindirh 5y ago> computers with high-speed networking capability What's high speed? 10mbps was high speed once, then it got obsolete. Now 1Gbps is standard, and while it's not lightning fast, it can be considered fast. 10Gbps ethernet is becoming bog standard in our servers, and they'll trickle down to consumers systems then. What's next? MIMO wireless adapters?
- interactivecode 5y agoif you ask the ISP it's 10 Mbit/s
- jchw 5y agoNot really. The regulations also hit me as relatively reasonable, seemingly having exemptions for highly expandable devices, and largely being concerned with idle energy usage. Furthermore, this was known a long time in advance and is the reasoning for the ATX12VO standard that appeared in 2019. https://twitter.com/JayzTwoCents/status/1420206010317230081 https://twitter.com/JayzTwoCents/status/1420206010317230081
- mlindner 5y agoThat person is misreading the regulations. It's not about idle power consumption. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27957381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27957381
- pope_meat 5y agoFirst they came for the gamers
- reshie 5y agohow does this apply to builds ie are parts next. many gamers build thier own pc's. i am personally no where near these high end but do build my own.
- zarzavat 5y agoI'm confused why the article says it only affects high powered PCs and not workstations, so professionals won't be affected. Is a workstation not merely a high powered PC. What exactly is banned here, RGB lighting?
- 0x008 5y agoThis also means that crypto miners are not affected, correct?
- bloniac 5y agoBut presumably they’re not banning coal powered electricity stations, they’re focusing on banning ….. gaming PCs. What about air conditioning, heaters, houses without insulation…. All banned?
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