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What's the next 10x technological innovation for no code? What would it take to remove programming from web development? Bubble seems excellent, but it is in a

by ipnon 5y ago

What's the next 10x technological innovation for no code? What would it take to remove programming from web development? Bubble seems excellent, but it is in a competitive field.

nexuist 5y ago
Declarative goal based development. You type in English what you want the application to do, and some developer tool generates thousands of variants (maybe through a genetic algorithm?) until you reach a design and functionality you're comfortable shipping. At a certain point we should be able to declaratively describe entire businesses, and have the computer work with vendors and other people online to carry out business processes while we macro-manage it from a bird's eye view. Something that could probably make lots of people very rich is a tool that allows anyone to start a SaaS within a few hours or days rather than months or years.
- neatze 5y ago
  > You type in English what you want the application to do. In my experience this is the hardest part of coding, to a large degree.
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Because modern coding is still too low level to allow quick development of full blown applications. It would be really annoying if you had to tell a Subway employee behind the counter how to use their hands to pick up ingredients, how many ingredients to pick up, when to move the sandwich down the line, when to stop applying mayo etc. Instead we can just tell them to make a BLT sandwich and they'll do it with little to no intervention. This is the same ideal we should strive for in our compilers and interpreters. Maybe the request is too vague and the employee has to ask for clarification - and that's okay! That's still far faster than micromanaging their muscle movements. Modern coding is micromanaging muscle movements. We want to evolve to a point where we can just ask the computer to make us a cake and be able to eat it, too.
    - feoren 5y ago
      Just like everyone who thinks no-code solutions are a good idea, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what programmers do. We're not assembly-line workers banging out code as the product. The assembly line is the compiler. We're researchers, engineers, and artists; the code is the design document. You're saying you'd like the sandwich maker at Subway to make you a brand new sandwich that has never existed before without having to micro-manage what they actually put on it. Writing code is nothing like micro-managing muscle movements, unless you're development an action that has never been done before (in that particular environment, circumstances, etc.). The level of abstraction in programming has been increasing every year since the 50s, and most of the code I write is me simply stating what I want to have happen at a very high level. When you want a BLT, you call getBLT(), unless a BLT is a brand new thing that has never existed before. The "don't reinvent the wheel" crowd massively under-estimates the size of the problem space we are exploring. The space of possible problems to solve is unimaginably huge. There's always reason for new wheels when there are 10^10^400 different terrains to drive on.
      - dmix 5y ago
        From my understanding the OP was addressing using English to code and how that might look at the fundamental level. Not critiquing or misunderstanding what software developers do day-to-day. It’s instead about different layers of abstraction. Which is the world we work in as programmers and one normal languages meant for communicating to other people is ill suited for and would be way more overly detailed.
        ozim 5y ago
        So what OP is doing he is disregarding how complex the world is. He is disregarding how much effort and how many moving pieces are needed to have an employee with which you can order a sandwich and have it done the same way each time. For starters you have to have ingredients ready, standard ways of storing them and much more. That is what Subway worked on for years to have standards and be able to hire someone to "make a sandwich". OP disregards that people hired in McD or Subway get !detailed! instructions how to make a sandwich and which ingredients should be put in which type of sandwich. Then their workplace is optimized to do so. List of ingredients is very limited as list of sandwiches you can order in Subway. List of ingredients in software is unlimited and there is no standard workplace and people imagination about what software to build is unlimited. There is lots of magical thinking in OP comment. He would like to magically remove all those layers of abstraction and gives simplified example, that breaks down when you think about that example more than 1 minute.
- zkldi 5y ago
  > Declarative goal based development. You type in English what you want the application to do, Isn't that just code? I'm convinced that for sufficiently complex "no-code" solutions, you just end up with a poor mans programming language.
  - nexuist 5y ago
    No, because programming wraps around the instruction-based model that processors use to execute programs. When you elevator pitch a product, you don't give them a list of instructions the product carries out, you tell them what the product does in broad terms. The theoretical next level of programming is being able to pitch your software to the computer, having it build it in real time, and playing around and tweaking it until it matches your vision in your head. This is not what programming is today because you have to spend far too much effort dealing with low level problems. The theoretical next level of programming is essentially just a programming language for product managers, I think.
    - wlamartin 5y ago
      This is a longer term goal that we're interested in at Story.ai (https://www.story.ai https://www.story.ai). We think that the future is presenting the computer with a problem (in the same way you might present to a consultant) and through a process of disambiguation with your domain expertise, come to a solution.
      - nexuist 5y ago
        Really cool! I signed up for your newsletter. Excited to see where you guys can take this.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      > programming wraps around the instruction-based model that processors use to execute programs Nope. There is more to programing than the imperative paradigm.
antupis 5y ago
I would say using nlp to create model where you can query erp, crm and other big business stuff without sql.
solresol 5y ago
Taking the history of a spreadsheet file, seeing what has been added to it over time, and where, and automatically generating a web application from that. Often some spreadsheet has grown organically to solve some problem, with or without code.

by ipnon 5y ago

What's the next 10x technological innovation for no code? What would it take to remove programming from web development? Bubble seems excellent, but it is in a competitive field.

nexuist 5y ago

Declarative goal based development. You type in English what you want the application to do, and some developer tool generates thousands of variants (maybe through a genetic algorithm?) until you reach a design and functionality you're comfortable shipping. At a certain point we should be able to declaratively describe entire businesses, and have the computer work with vendors and other people online to carry out business processes while we macro-manage it from a bird's eye view. Something that could probably make lots of people very rich is a tool that allows anyone to start a SaaS within a few hours or days rather than months or years.

neatze 5y ago
> You type in English what you want the application to do. In my experience this is the hardest part of coding, to a large degree.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Because modern coding is still too low level to allow quick development of full blown applications. It would be really annoying if you had to tell a Subway employee behind the counter how to use their hands to pick up ingredients, how many ingredients to pick up, when to move the sandwich down the line, when to stop applying mayo etc. Instead we can just tell them to make a BLT sandwich and they'll do it with little to no intervention. This is the same ideal we should strive for in our compilers and interpreters. Maybe the request is too vague and the employee has to ask for clarification - and that's okay! That's still far faster than micromanaging their muscle movements. Modern coding is micromanaging muscle movements. We want to evolve to a point where we can just ask the computer to make us a cake and be able to eat it, too.
  - feoren 5y ago
    Just like everyone who thinks no-code solutions are a good idea, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what programmers do. We're not assembly-line workers banging out code as the product. The assembly line is the compiler. We're researchers, engineers, and artists; the code is the design document. You're saying you'd like the sandwich maker at Subway to make you a brand new sandwich that has never existed before without having to micro-manage what they actually put on it. Writing code is nothing like micro-managing muscle movements, unless you're development an action that has never been done before (in that particular environment, circumstances, etc.). The level of abstraction in programming has been increasing every year since the 50s, and most of the code I write is me simply stating what I want to have happen at a very high level. When you want a BLT, you call getBLT(), unless a BLT is a brand new thing that has never existed before. The "don't reinvent the wheel" crowd massively under-estimates the size of the problem space we are exploring. The space of possible problems to solve is unimaginably huge. There's always reason for new wheels when there are 10^10^400 different terrains to drive on.
    - dmix 5y ago
      From my understanding the OP was addressing using English to code and how that might look at the fundamental level. Not critiquing or misunderstanding what software developers do day-to-day. It’s instead about different layers of abstraction. Which is the world we work in as programmers and one normal languages meant for communicating to other people is ill suited for and would be way more overly detailed.
      - ozim 5y ago
        So what OP is doing he is disregarding how complex the world is. He is disregarding how much effort and how many moving pieces are needed to have an employee with which you can order a sandwich and have it done the same way each time. For starters you have to have ingredients ready, standard ways of storing them and much more. That is what Subway worked on for years to have standards and be able to hire someone to "make a sandwich". OP disregards that people hired in McD or Subway get !detailed! instructions how to make a sandwich and which ingredients should be put in which type of sandwich. Then their workplace is optimized to do so. List of ingredients is very limited as list of sandwiches you can order in Subway. List of ingredients in software is unlimited and there is no standard workplace and people imagination about what software to build is unlimited. There is lots of magical thinking in OP comment. He would like to magically remove all those layers of abstraction and gives simplified example, that breaks down when you think about that example more than 1 minute.
zkldi 5y ago
> Declarative goal based development. You type in English what you want the application to do, Isn't that just code? I'm convinced that for sufficiently complex "no-code" solutions, you just end up with a poor mans programming language.
- nexuist 5y ago
  No, because programming wraps around the instruction-based model that processors use to execute programs. When you elevator pitch a product, you don't give them a list of instructions the product carries out, you tell them what the product does in broad terms. The theoretical next level of programming is being able to pitch your software to the computer, having it build it in real time, and playing around and tweaking it until it matches your vision in your head. This is not what programming is today because you have to spend far too much effort dealing with low level problems. The theoretical next level of programming is essentially just a programming language for product managers, I think.
  - wlamartin 5y ago
    This is a longer term goal that we're interested in at Story.ai (https://www.story.ai https://www.story.ai). We think that the future is presenting the computer with a problem (in the same way you might present to a consultant) and through a process of disambiguation with your domain expertise, come to a solution.
    - nexuist 5y ago
      Really cool! I signed up for your newsletter. Excited to see where you guys can take this.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    > programming wraps around the instruction-based model that processors use to execute programs Nope. There is more to programing than the imperative paradigm.

antupis 5y ago

I would say using nlp to create model where you can query erp, crm and other big business stuff without sql.

solresol 5y ago

Taking the history of a spreadsheet file, seeing what has been added to it over time, and where, and automatically generating a web application from that. Often some spreadsheet has grown organically to solve some problem, with or without code.