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"it's common for men to talk down to men on video games too" This is very tone deaf. I have spent probably thousands of hours playing games (with a mic) and t

"it's common for men to talk down to men on video games too" This is very tone deaf. I have spent probably thousands of hours playing games (with a mic) and the % of times I've been "talked down to" is very small, and it was never because of a natural property about me (that I'm male, etc). Literally every woman that I've played with who has used a mic or otherwise presented themselves as female has faced vitriolic harassment (and/or sexual harassment) for no reason other than that they were female. I've been in lobbies with them and suddenly see men becoming -far- more judgemental and critical about the female player's ability/skill than usual. This is why a lot of women don't use mics at all or otherwise identify themselves as female in online games. The "talking down" (or just general random toxicity) that men sometimes face from other male players is not even remotely comparable.

nitrogen 5y ago
The people talking down are the people who think gamers are beneath them (but might play NFL or CoD on their console). AKA jocks vs. geeks.
tsumnia 5y ago
I think the poster's "talk down to" was more referring to the general "shit talking" people do in games. Even if you have a generic username and never speak, people will talk crap, be a jerk, or whatever. Even games that provide built in messages can get converted into trash talk (Rocket League, Overwatch, etc.). Having something "identifiable" just lets trash talkers switch from "you're terrible" to something else.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  Well, sure, those things exist. What I'm getting at is that the % of it that happens purely because I'm -male- (or another natural property about me) is basically zero. Either they're just being belligerent in general or they perceive me to be underperforming (rightly or wrongly). Whereas when I play with women who e.g. use a mic, very frequently it's like a switch gets flipped and people start being weird, overtly sexual, or just flat out insanely critical of every little thing the female players do. If we start losing the round (in e.g. Overwatch), they start blaming the female players unfairly, etc. Obviously this is all anecdata but from everyone that I've spoken to it's a very common experience, hence most of my female friends just eschewing the mic entirely or only playing with specific groups instead of general matchmaking.
  - tsumnia 5y ago
    > a switch gets flipped and people start being weird, overtly sexual, or just flat out insanely critical of every little thing the female players do I have no doubt that this occurs and I've even intervened in that type of behavior before; I think I hold more toward the "Greater Internet F---wad Theory" [1]. People will act like jerks and attack you for whatever traits you have. Adults trash talk 12 year olds; 12 year olds trash talk adults. I'm not saying people should grow thicker skin, but rather that we haven't really figured out a way to NOT have trash talking. Maybe collaborative style games over competitive, but even then, those require interactions and communication, which leads us back to Penny-Arcade. [1] https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
    - madamelic 5y ago
      The difference between "squeakies" is everyone was a squeakie at one point. It's basically an internet right-of-passage whether that is right or wrong. Regardless, all squeakies get to stop being squeakies eventually. Women don't get that option. Women don't get to grow out of being women or being harassed for who they are. I mean, I don't disagree with you that having a thick skin on the internet, but it's unfair that men get to make women feel unwelcome in online spaces simply for being women. There's a large chasm between friendly teasing and harassment.
brian_cunnie 5y ago
> every woman ... has vitriolic harassment faced (and/or sexual harassment). I experienced being treated differently when I was playing a very attractive Blood Elf Warrior in World of Warcraft ten years ago: a fellow adventurer would continually give me gifts (valuable in-game items). The third time this happened I realized he wasn't being generous—he was courting me! I had to come clean. I messaged him, "Dude, I gotta tell ya: I'm not a girl in real life." "You're not?" "No, I'm a balding man in his mid-forties." Long pause, and then he replied, "I gotta take a cold shower." I never heard from him again, but he seemed like a nice guy who was trying to get a girlfriend by doing nice things for her, and I hope he found what he was looking for.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Aren’t all blood elf warriors equally attractive? Assuming any given female blood elf warrior is actually a female IRL needs a major reality distortion field.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    You'd be surprised how many folks fall into this distortion field though (and I fully agree with how silly this is). It's enough such that my partner and many of her female friends only play female avatars in private games.

nitrogen 5y ago

The people talking down are the people who think gamers are beneath them (but might play NFL or CoD on their console). AKA jocks vs. geeks.

tsumnia 5y ago

I think the poster's "talk down to" was more referring to the general "shit talking" people do in games. Even if you have a generic username and never speak, people will talk crap, be a jerk, or whatever. Even games that provide built in messages can get converted into trash talk (Rocket League, Overwatch, etc.). Having something "identifiable" just lets trash talkers switch from "you're terrible" to something else.

andrewzah 5y ago
Well, sure, those things exist. What I'm getting at is that the % of it that happens purely because I'm -male- (or another natural property about me) is basically zero. Either they're just being belligerent in general or they perceive me to be underperforming (rightly or wrongly). Whereas when I play with women who e.g. use a mic, very frequently it's like a switch gets flipped and people start being weird, overtly sexual, or just flat out insanely critical of every little thing the female players do. If we start losing the round (in e.g. Overwatch), they start blaming the female players unfairly, etc. Obviously this is all anecdata but from everyone that I've spoken to it's a very common experience, hence most of my female friends just eschewing the mic entirely or only playing with specific groups instead of general matchmaking.
- tsumnia 5y ago
  > a switch gets flipped and people start being weird, overtly sexual, or just flat out insanely critical of every little thing the female players do I have no doubt that this occurs and I've even intervened in that type of behavior before; I think I hold more toward the "Greater Internet F---wad Theory" [1]. People will act like jerks and attack you for whatever traits you have. Adults trash talk 12 year olds; 12 year olds trash talk adults. I'm not saying people should grow thicker skin, but rather that we haven't really figured out a way to NOT have trash talking. Maybe collaborative style games over competitive, but even then, those require interactions and communication, which leads us back to Penny-Arcade. [1] https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
  - madamelic 5y ago
    The difference between "squeakies" is everyone was a squeakie at one point. It's basically an internet right-of-passage whether that is right or wrong. Regardless, all squeakies get to stop being squeakies eventually. Women don't get that option. Women don't get to grow out of being women or being harassed for who they are. I mean, I don't disagree with you that having a thick skin on the internet, but it's unfair that men get to make women feel unwelcome in online spaces simply for being women. There's a large chasm between friendly teasing and harassment.

brian_cunnie 5y ago

> every woman ... has vitriolic harassment faced (and/or sexual harassment). I experienced being treated differently when I was playing a very attractive Blood Elf Warrior in World of Warcraft ten years ago: a fellow adventurer would continually give me gifts (valuable in-game items). The third time this happened I realized he wasn't being generous—he was courting me! I had to come clean. I messaged him, "Dude, I gotta tell ya: I'm not a girl in real life." "You're not?" "No, I'm a balding man in his mid-forties." Long pause, and then he replied, "I gotta take a cold shower." I never heard from him again, but he seemed like a nice guy who was trying to get a girlfriend by doing nice things for her, and I hope he found what he was looking for.

Aeolun 5y ago
Aren’t all blood elf warriors equally attractive? Assuming any given female blood elf warrior is actually a female IRL needs a major reality distortion field.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  You'd be surprised how many folks fall into this distortion field though (and I fully agree with how silly this is). It's enough such that my partner and many of her female friends only play female avatars in private games.