6 ms·

Light-to-moderate drinking tied to lower risk of heart attack and death

23 points by leephillips 5y ago

xutopia 5y ago
Before anyone decides to drink alcohol as if it were a supplement hear me out. Alcohol in every continent has a rich social element to sharing it. It could very well be that the fabric of society around which revolves alcohol consumption determines these benefits more so than the alcohol consumption itself. It might well be that regularly seeing friends, a ritual as ancient as humanity itself, could be responsible for these healing effects. Friends are good for you!
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Disclaimer: I've never drank. I don't understand this tho - why is alcohol talked about as if not drinking prevents you from hanging with friends? I don't drink and regularly see my friends who do while they're drinking. I usually just get a virgin seltzer at bars personally. Are there people incapable of socializing without drinking?
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    A lot of social gatherings involve drinking, especially in the earlier parts of your life (like college). If you have the right friend group and/or are more of a social butterfly, you can get by without drinking, but it definitely helps a lot with bonding.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    I do drink now, but spent my 20s as the official DD of every group I was with and went out with them quite often. Not drinking does not, as a rule, prevent hanging out with friends. However, in alcohol heavy situations, it can be off putting for a lot of people to remain sober. It’s hard to be part of the group above a certain drunkenness level if you’re still sober. Not impossible, but hard.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    You're missing the point, which is that alcohol use is positively correlated with the tendency to see friends socially, which could explain the finding being reported here. Nobody is saying that it's an iron clad relationship and not drinking is preventing you from seeing friends.
    - Godel_unicode 5y ago
      > alcohol use is positively correlated with the tendency to see friends socially Is there evidence for this, or is this just a gut feeling? I don't see my non-drinking friends less than my drinking ones. I had plenty of college friends who didn't drink and took great pleasure in messing with their inebriated classmates.
      - tomrod 5y ago
        It's an alternative hypothesis that aligns with current evidence, hence the discord.
        Godel_unicode 5y ago
        I have seen no evidence posted that corroborates this hypothesis. It's also pretty clearly not stated as a hypothesis, but rather as a fact which the upstream poster is "missing".
        tomrod 5y ago
        Appearances aside, until evidence or logic aligns beyond refutation, all assertions are simply hypotheses.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        I can tell you from experience that the drinking friends did not look upon the non-drinking friends as fondly in all cases.
        deleted 5y ago
  - tomrod 5y ago
    I went to the age of 35 without drinking (formerly part of a high-demand religion). I can say from experience that social bonding feels a bit stronger with light inebriation.
  - toofy 5y ago
    > … why is alcohol talked about as if not drinking prevents you from hanging with friends? I don’t think anyone is saying this at all.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    I wouldn’t say I’m incapable of it, but, to quote Hemingway, “I drink to make other people more interesting.”
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    When I'm with my friends, I can have a great time without alcohol. When I'm with my workmates and in similar scenarios, it helps to make this semi-forced situation a bit more pleasant.
sremani 5y ago
Abstinence is easier than moderation. My point is simple here - if you or your family has a history of alcoholism, abstinence is the better way out. Moderation is harder than you think especially the way alcohol impairs your judgement. But for those who can practice moderation, power to you.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  I’d find it hard not to moderate: drinking every day makes me feel like shit and puts me off alcohol. But fuck the UK drinking culture I remember a 16 year old laughing at going to the US and someone thinking a litre pitcher of beer was a lot and one was enough. Terms like “lightweight” and “what’s wrong with you” if you drink water between vodkas and beers.
zeteo 5y ago
The link to the actual study appears to be broken. It's interesting that they've found the largest effect by far in people who drink the equivalent of 3 bottles of weak beer per week. It would be good to know how many people in the study fell in this category. If a small percentage then it could be a statistical fallacy due to small samples having larger variances.
bin_bash 5y ago
Isn’t the problem with these studies that people that drink no alcohol are often not doing so because of bad health or because they were alcoholics? e.g.: https://time.com/5376552/how-much-alcohol-to-drink-study/ https://time.com/5376552/how-much-alcohol-to-drink-study/
- ekianjo 5y ago
  Possibly, or a myriad of other factors as well, which is why designing proper control/test groups is extremely difficult.
- nostromo 5y ago
  This study is only looking at people with heart disease -- not healthy individuals.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Still, there's confounders. The people who had heart disease and drank more probably have a more active social life than those with heart disease who don't drink.
    - nostromo 5y ago
      Of course. There are lots of potential reasons. The most obvious to me is that alcohol is a blood thinner, much like aspirin, which is known to be beneficial to people with heart disease. Note that the maximum benefit was found to be only a single drink a day - not a large dose.
      - lugged 5y ago
        People who drink in moderation likely also eat bad food in moderation, or smoke in moderation, or argue with their partner in moderation, or work in moderation, or stress in moderation or all sorts of other things over their lifetime. The blood thinning does sound like an interesting point but it's still really hard to see this as evidence without accounting for factors unknown. A lot of things cause heart disease and those things in more moderation probably stave of off future problems.
ekianjo 5y ago
Even if the benefits are real (which is really dubious as most observational studies should be carefully reviewed!), most important is this: > Ding cautioned that non-drinking individuals should not be encouraged to take up light drinking because of known adverse effects on other health outcomes, such as cancers.
- chillwaves 5y ago
  The mental health implications are also difficult to quantify. I would also guess most people who develop alcohol addiction did not understand their risk factors when they first started drinking.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
j45 5y ago
These types of studies seem to flip flop every so often to allow anyone to justify what they want to do instead of being open to learning to take a look at improving any behaviour they may have.
chizhik-pyzhik 5y ago
Link to the study- https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-021-02040-2 https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291... >In summary, our study shows that an alcohol intake up to about 105g a week is associated with lower risks of both mortality and subsequent cardiovascular events among CVD patients. >Our findings therefore indicate that, for secondary prevention of CVD, current drinkers may not need to stop drinking but should be informed that lower levels of intake (up to 105g/week) may be associated with reduced risks. However, non-drinking patients should not be encouraged to take up light drinking because of well-known adverse effects on other health outcomes, such as cancers [79].
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  And no one is going to remember to include that cancer part.
yk 5y ago
Thing is, light-to-moderate drinking implies that nothing really bad happened in your live. Most of the people who have cancer either stop drinking or become heavy drinker. Same with a heart attack and so on. However, the reason we hear again and again about these studies is, that both scientist at a prestigious institution and journalist at a prestigious publication implies that not much really bad has happened in your live, which in turn implies light to moderate drinking.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  > who have cancer either stop drinking or become heavy drinker Is there any evidence for this? It doesn't match my experience at all.
- taneq 5y ago
  I think you're onto something. Substance abuse typically correlates with stress. I would be surprised if a generally moderate lifestyle weren't associated with both an overall lower rate of significant stressors (poverty, health complications, high-stress job, etc.) and with generally improved health related behaviours and health outcomes.
belltaco 5y ago
In other news: Drinking any amount of alcohol causes damage to the brain, study finds https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/drinking-alcohol-causes-damage-brain-study-finds-170938612.html https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/drinking-alcohol-causes-dama...
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Just a little brain damage may be good for you?
lr4444lr 5y ago
... controlling for the higher camaraderie and socializing typically enjoyed by such drinkers?
torgoguys 5y ago
Observational study. Useful sometimes, but remember its limits. (This is your regular reminder that correlation != causation.)
motohagiography 5y ago
Even if the opposite were true and alcohol was profoundly destructive, it is still part of a dominant evolutionary strategy. Sure, on an individual level it lengthens or shortens my lifespan, but it also improves the attractiveness of myself and others. People who criticize alcohol for social problems forget they probably wouldn't exist without it, so net-net, skol!
ilaksh 5y ago
"Notably, with older age of the study participants comes increased likelihood for drinkers to become former drinkers, which might exacerbate the “sick quitters” bias (i.e. when the non-drinking reference group also includes former drinkers who have stopped drinking due to poor health) as discussed above" Bunch of nonsense. People that stopped drinking because of poor health are in the study. The ones who felt better drank because they were up to it. Who funded this study?
mgarfias 5y ago
So how much tequila is 6g in a measure that I can understand?
m1n1 5y ago
If you turn red after only half of one drink, consider: "people who inherit a deficiency in an enzyme that metabolizes alcohol have been found to have substantially increased risks of esophageal squamous cell carcinoma if they consume alcohol" [1] Wu C, Wang Z, Song X, et al. Joint analysis of three genome-wide association studies of esophageal squamous cell carcinoma in Chinese populations. Nature Genetics 2014; 46(9):1001-1006. [1] https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/alcohol/alcohol-fact-sheet#r11 https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a...

23 points by leephillips 5y ago

Before anyone decides to drink alcohol as if it were a supplement hear me out. Alcohol in every continent has a rich social element to sharing it. It could very well be that the fabric of society around which revolves alcohol consumption determines these benefits more so than the alcohol consumption itself. It might well be that regularly seeing friends, a ritual as ancient as humanity itself, could be responsible for these healing effects. Friends are good for you!

endisneigh 5y ago
Disclaimer: I've never drank. I don't understand this tho - why is alcohol talked about as if not drinking prevents you from hanging with friends? I don't drink and regularly see my friends who do while they're drinking. I usually just get a virgin seltzer at bars personally. Are there people incapable of socializing without drinking?
- Sebb767 5y ago
  A lot of social gatherings involve drinking, especially in the earlier parts of your life (like college). If you have the right friend group and/or are more of a social butterfly, you can get by without drinking, but it definitely helps a lot with bonding.
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  I do drink now, but spent my 20s as the official DD of every group I was with and went out with them quite often. Not drinking does not, as a rule, prevent hanging out with friends. However, in alcohol heavy situations, it can be off putting for a lot of people to remain sober. It’s hard to be part of the group above a certain drunkenness level if you’re still sober. Not impossible, but hard.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  You're missing the point, which is that alcohol use is positively correlated with the tendency to see friends socially, which could explain the finding being reported here. Nobody is saying that it's an iron clad relationship and not drinking is preventing you from seeing friends.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    > alcohol use is positively correlated with the tendency to see friends socially Is there evidence for this, or is this just a gut feeling? I don't see my non-drinking friends less than my drinking ones. I had plenty of college friends who didn't drink and took great pleasure in messing with their inebriated classmates.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      It's an alternative hypothesis that aligns with current evidence, hence the discord.
      - Godel_unicode 5y ago
        I have seen no evidence posted that corroborates this hypothesis. It's also pretty clearly not stated as a hypothesis, but rather as a fact which the upstream poster is "missing".
        tomrod 5y ago
        Appearances aside, until evidence or logic aligns beyond refutation, all assertions are simply hypotheses.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      I can tell you from experience that the drinking friends did not look upon the non-drinking friends as fondly in all cases.
      - deleted 5y ago
- tomrod 5y ago
  I went to the age of 35 without drinking (formerly part of a high-demand religion). I can say from experience that social bonding feels a bit stronger with light inebriation.
- toofy 5y ago
  > … why is alcohol talked about as if not drinking prevents you from hanging with friends? I don’t think anyone is saying this at all.
- leephillips 5y ago
  I wouldn’t say I’m incapable of it, but, to quote Hemingway, “I drink to make other people more interesting.”
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  When I'm with my friends, I can have a great time without alcohol. When I'm with my workmates and in similar scenarios, it helps to make this semi-forced situation a bit more pleasant.

sremani 5y ago

Abstinence is easier than moderation. My point is simple here - if you or your family has a history of alcoholism, abstinence is the better way out. Moderation is harder than you think especially the way alcohol impairs your judgement. But for those who can practice moderation, power to you.

quickthrower2 5y ago
I’d find it hard not to moderate: drinking every day makes me feel like shit and puts me off alcohol. But fuck the UK drinking culture I remember a 16 year old laughing at going to the US and someone thinking a litre pitcher of beer was a lot and one was enough. Terms like “lightweight” and “what’s wrong with you” if you drink water between vodkas and beers.

zeteo 5y ago

The link to the actual study appears to be broken. It's interesting that they've found the largest effect by far in people who drink the equivalent of 3 bottles of weak beer per week. It would be good to know how many people in the study fell in this category. If a small percentage then it could be a statistical fallacy due to small samples having larger variances.

bin_bash 5y ago

Isn’t the problem with these studies that people that drink no alcohol are often not doing so because of bad health or because they were alcoholics? e.g.: https://time.com/5376552/how-much-alcohol-to-drink-study/ https://time.com/5376552/how-much-alcohol-to-drink-study/

ekianjo 5y ago
Possibly, or a myriad of other factors as well, which is why designing proper control/test groups is extremely difficult.
nostromo 5y ago
This study is only looking at people with heart disease -- not healthy individuals.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Still, there's confounders. The people who had heart disease and drank more probably have a more active social life than those with heart disease who don't drink.
  - nostromo 5y ago
    Of course. There are lots of potential reasons. The most obvious to me is that alcohol is a blood thinner, much like aspirin, which is known to be beneficial to people with heart disease. Note that the maximum benefit was found to be only a single drink a day - not a large dose.
    - lugged 5y ago
      People who drink in moderation likely also eat bad food in moderation, or smoke in moderation, or argue with their partner in moderation, or work in moderation, or stress in moderation or all sorts of other things over their lifetime. The blood thinning does sound like an interesting point but it's still really hard to see this as evidence without accounting for factors unknown. A lot of things cause heart disease and those things in more moderation probably stave of off future problems.

ekianjo 5y ago

Even if the benefits are real (which is really dubious as most observational studies should be carefully reviewed!), most important is this: > Ding cautioned that non-drinking individuals should not be encouraged to take up light drinking because of known adverse effects on other health outcomes, such as cancers.

chillwaves 5y ago
The mental health implications are also difficult to quantify. I would also guess most people who develop alcohol addiction did not understand their risk factors when they first started drinking.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

j45 5y ago

These types of studies seem to flip flop every so often to allow anyone to justify what they want to do instead of being open to learning to take a look at improving any behaviour they may have.

chizhik-pyzhik 5y ago

Link to the study- https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-021-02040-2 https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1291... >In summary, our study shows that an alcohol intake up to about 105g a week is associated with lower risks of both mortality and subsequent cardiovascular events among CVD patients. >Our findings therefore indicate that, for secondary prevention of CVD, current drinkers may not need to stop drinking but should be informed that lower levels of intake (up to 105g/week) may be associated with reduced risks. However, non-drinking patients should not be encouraged to take up light drinking because of well-known adverse effects on other health outcomes, such as cancers [79].

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
And no one is going to remember to include that cancer part.

yk 5y ago

Thing is, light-to-moderate drinking implies that nothing really bad happened in your live. Most of the people who have cancer either stop drinking or become heavy drinker. Same with a heart attack and so on. However, the reason we hear again and again about these studies is, that both scientist at a prestigious institution and journalist at a prestigious publication implies that not much really bad has happened in your live, which in turn implies light to moderate drinking.

Godel_unicode 5y ago
> who have cancer either stop drinking or become heavy drinker Is there any evidence for this? It doesn't match my experience at all.
taneq 5y ago
I think you're onto something. Substance abuse typically correlates with stress. I would be surprised if a generally moderate lifestyle weren't associated with both an overall lower rate of significant stressors (poverty, health complications, high-stress job, etc.) and with generally improved health related behaviours and health outcomes.

belltaco 5y ago

In other news: Drinking any amount of alcohol causes damage to the brain, study finds https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/drinking-alcohol-causes-damage-brain-study-finds-170938612.html https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/drinking-alcohol-causes-dama...

TameAntelope 5y ago
Just a little brain damage may be good for you?

lr4444lr 5y ago

... controlling for the higher camaraderie and socializing typically enjoyed by such drinkers?

torgoguys 5y ago

Observational study. Useful sometimes, but remember its limits. (This is your regular reminder that correlation != causation.)

motohagiography 5y ago

Even if the opposite were true and alcohol was profoundly destructive, it is still part of a dominant evolutionary strategy. Sure, on an individual level it lengthens or shortens my lifespan, but it also improves the attractiveness of myself and others. People who criticize alcohol for social problems forget they probably wouldn't exist without it, so net-net, skol!

ilaksh 5y ago

"Notably, with older age of the study participants comes increased likelihood for drinkers to become former drinkers, which might exacerbate the “sick quitters” bias (i.e. when the non-drinking reference group also includes former drinkers who have stopped drinking due to poor health) as discussed above" Bunch of nonsense. People that stopped drinking because of poor health are in the study. The ones who felt better drank because they were up to it. Who funded this study?

mgarfias 5y ago

So how much tequila is 6g in a measure that I can understand?

m1n1 5y ago

If you turn red after only half of one drink, consider: "people who inherit a deficiency in an enzyme that metabolizes alcohol have been found to have substantially increased risks of esophageal squamous cell carcinoma if they consume alcohol" [1] Wu C, Wang Z, Song X, et al. Joint analysis of three genome-wide association studies of esophageal squamous cell carcinoma in Chinese populations. Nature Genetics 2014; 46(9):1001-1006. [1] https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/alcohol/alcohol-fact-sheet#r11 https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a...