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I can’t fully grasp the argument about jail breaking. The device was never intended to be used this way in the first place. The process itself probably also rel

by isodev 5y ago

I can’t fully grasp the argument about jail breaking. The device was never intended to be used this way in the first place. The process itself probably also relies on bugs that need to be reported, not harnessed. I own my device without the need to root it, every feature in the brochure is available to me as a user. I understand that around the 90s owning anything with an OS also implied the ability to mess with the box of bolts and circuits that run the OS but that’s no longer the case. At least not when it comes to phones. I mean sure maybe you want a fancy device to play with … get a PCB and do whatever you want with it while your phone is updating.

Dig1t 5y ago
As unpopular as I think this opinion is, I can't help but agree. If you want a hackable phone there are literally thousands of different Android phones that you can buy for a fraction of the price that you can tweak/hack to your heart's content.
- Stevvo 5y ago
  The key difference is with Android you can take responsibility for your own security if you choose; it's a Linux not so different to any other. On iPhone you don't have that option, and you have no way of knowing if your phone was compromised.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  But none work with Apple Watches, nor do they work with iMessage.
  - haswell 5y ago
    There’s a saying about cake that seems to apply here. Again, there are other options for both. Android wear devices are still a thing, and there are multiple options that aren’t SMS that are available to the Android ecosystem. If you want to live in the Apple ecosystem, that comes with some tradeoffs. Can’t have it both ways.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Actually, there isn't. It's perfectly possible to be able to have a process to request bootloader unlocks from Apple, and also be able to use the ecosystem. The entire point of the saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too is that, well, it can't be both in your hands and in your stomach. But it's perfectly possible for me to be able to call Apple and get a bootloader unlock code, without any other change to anything.
      - haswell 5y ago
        The general point behind the proverb boils down to "you can't have it both ways" or "you can't have the best of two worlds". That's essentially what the parent comment is trying to do. When offered the Android ecosystem as an alternative, the counterpoint was to lament the lack of Apple Watch and iMessage support in the Android ecosystem. This is textbook "I want it both ways".
    - jonny_eh 5y ago
      While it's literally impossible to have cake and to have eaten it, it's not impossible to have a good phone and a hackable one, in a single device.
      - haswell 5y ago
        The cake thing was in response to you wanting Apple Watch and iMessage…on Android. This is the definition of wanting it both ways. I don’t think anyone would argue that it’s technically impossible, but that should not be mistaken with “practically impossible” given Apple’s business model.
        jonny_eh 5y ago
        I don't want iMessage on Android, I want a hackable phone that supports iMessage too. I realize that's not really possible now, but it's not a logical impossibility, like being alive and dead at the same time.
Bayart 5y ago
>The device was never intended to be used this way in the first place. The manufacturer has no say on the usage, simple as that. That there are better ways to tinker is irrelevant. It doesn't preclude the right of people to tinker with anything they own at their own convenience, including an iPhone if that's what they got.
- isodev 5y ago
  I’m not disputing the right to do whatever you want with your phone. My comment was specifically targeting the fact that jail breaking somehow encourages people to develop means of circumventing the security of devices. This is when this becomes dangerous - suddenly it has the potential to hurt unsuspecting users. Saying that the responsibility is with Apple (or Google) to make this possible feels like a straw man argument - their job is to earn money (no illusions there) and keep users safe, even if it means making it harder to tinker (which also helps them earn money)
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    That's why we need changes to the law.
- tarsinge 5y ago
  Arbitrary separating the hardware from the OS is not the same thing as the manufacturer having a say on usage. Like I am free to use my car how I want, but that I may not be able to easily repair it or swap parts like the seats or the engine is another problem.
- planb 5y ago
  You are absolutely right. The manufacturer and the law has no say on the usage of a device I own. And still I cannot expect them to support a way of usage that was never intended. So Apple shouldn't be (and isn't) able to sue jailbreakers, but they don't have to make it easy for them.
  - Siira 5y ago
    Apple’s security theater is the pillar of their anticompetitive behaviors. The only users it helps are noobs who will just install whatever. If some serious actor wants your data, the theater doesn’t deter them, as evidenced by this Pegasus. If China wants your data, Apple will hand it over themselves. It’s all a “think of the children” race-to-the-bottum where rent-seekers abuse fear and sycophanty to monopolize critical infrastructure.
JackGreyhat 5y ago
> I understand that around the 90s owning anything with an OS also implied the ability to mess with the box of bolts and circuits that run the OS but that’s no longer the case. At least not when it comes to phones. Incorrect. It is still the case with nearly all Android phones. You can install any OS version, gain full permissions, mess with kernels, modules, frameworks, recoveries, ...
- acdha 5y ago
  You mean all of the people I see complaining about locked bootloaders are mistaken?
  - JackGreyhat 5y ago
    Thats because they bought a locked version, such as most carrier models.
ValentineC 5y ago
> I own my device without the need to root it, every feature in the brochure is available to me as a user. I'm not able to sideload iOS apps easily (apart from using AltStore), or downgrade apps at all. This becomes possible with a jailbreak. Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. iOS (Android too, I believe) actively prevents some data from being backed up or copied otherwise.
- isodev 5y ago
  Sideloading apps is not a feature of iOS. It is also illegal unless the app explicitly allows it in their license. If you need to be able to side load apps, you need a device intended for this purpose. Regarding data, all user data on iOS is backed up either through iCloud and/or on your Mac.
- nojito 5y ago
  So get another phone.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    How does this let you sideload iOS apps, or run older versions of them? That's like responding “just use Linux“ to a Windows user's complaint about Office.
- acdha 5y ago
  > Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. iOS (Android too, I believe) actively prevents some data from being backed up or copied otherwise. The primary area you see this is with applications which have flagged that data as sensitive so it won't be included on unecrypted backups (which includes iCloud). This is somewhat important for security — for example, you reasonably do not want TOTP seeds floating around invalidating your second factor security model — but it means you have a problem if an application you care about uses that feature in a way you don't anticipate.
- techrat 5y ago
  > Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. Also with a jailbreak, other people own your data too. A jailbreak is an exploit. A hammer can be used to drive in a nail (jailbreak) or it can be used to smash windows (malware.) Same tool in the end. The very act of jailbreaking is what keeps your system vulnerable to the same exploits used by malicious actors.
_fat_santa 5y ago
I feel like Jailbreaking was much more of a thing about 10-12 years ago when the iPhone 3G/3GS and 4 came out. Around that time iOS was still pretty limited in what you could do . So Jailbreaking gave you the ability to: - Set a background wallpaper - Reply to SMS in a quick reply window (I still miss BiteSMS) - Create albums in Photos. - An "Android Like" (back then) quick toggle. Nowdays all these features and more are part of iOS, but back then Jailbreaking let you do so many things that Apple hadn't gotten around to including in iOS.
- dpedu 5y ago
  The primary point of jailbreaking is to be able to run native apps not approved by or banned by Apple and that is something you still cannot do.
  - isodev 5y ago
    Yes, it’s very unfortunate when an app is not available for some reason. In most cases it’s a valid reason - the app is malicious, poorly made or somehow in conflict with local law. Also imagine if you are an app developer an suddenly your project (on which you’ve spent countless hours of hard work) is unexpectedly leaked as freely available for download and side-loading. I’m not talking big Corps like epic and blizzard … but people like you and me. Open source apps can be loaded easily, so developers who really want to make their stuff available can still do so and users won’t need to hack their phones to get such apps. But of course this can’t happen en masse.
    - dpedu 5y ago
      The affect of piracy is generally overstated and commonly bundled with the (incorrect) belief that a pirate would instead be a paying customer if the piracy option was not available.
      - draugadrotten 5y ago
        The Steam model appears to be way better. I am buying 10x more things on Steam than I will ever have time to use, while I generally avoid Appstore as much as possible for Mac apps (and even for phone apps when there is an alternative) The psychology of the Steam store is very different from the Appstore.
14 5y ago
I use my device to scratch my nose who is anyone to tell me how to use my device after I purchase it? A jailbroken iPhone has been useful in so many ways over the years. Currently I am not jailbroken but wish I was just to see all the cool mods I could have access too. There are so many useful tools it blew my mind all the missing features Apple left out. Hell when I bought the phone Rogers sold me a video messaging plan. Sure was surprised to learn the original iPhone didn’t even have native video recording. I was however able to jailbreak and download Cycorder and suddenly I could use my device not as it was intended I guess but super useful to me. Your point of view seems so narrow minded to me.
aj3 5y ago
Well, some people want to have root access to study iOS internals, debug software, look for forensic artefacts and unknown vulnerabilities.

by isodev 5y ago

Dig1t 5y ago

As unpopular as I think this opinion is, I can't help but agree. If you want a hackable phone there are literally thousands of different Android phones that you can buy for a fraction of the price that you can tweak/hack to your heart's content.

Stevvo 5y ago
The key difference is with Android you can take responsibility for your own security if you choose; it's a Linux not so different to any other. On iPhone you don't have that option, and you have no way of knowing if your phone was compromised.
jonny_eh 5y ago
But none work with Apple Watches, nor do they work with iMessage.
- haswell 5y ago
  There’s a saying about cake that seems to apply here. Again, there are other options for both. Android wear devices are still a thing, and there are multiple options that aren’t SMS that are available to the Android ecosystem. If you want to live in the Apple ecosystem, that comes with some tradeoffs. Can’t have it both ways.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Actually, there isn't. It's perfectly possible to be able to have a process to request bootloader unlocks from Apple, and also be able to use the ecosystem. The entire point of the saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too is that, well, it can't be both in your hands and in your stomach. But it's perfectly possible for me to be able to call Apple and get a bootloader unlock code, without any other change to anything.
    - haswell 5y ago
      The general point behind the proverb boils down to "you can't have it both ways" or "you can't have the best of two worlds". That's essentially what the parent comment is trying to do. When offered the Android ecosystem as an alternative, the counterpoint was to lament the lack of Apple Watch and iMessage support in the Android ecosystem. This is textbook "I want it both ways".
  - jonny_eh 5y ago
    While it's literally impossible to have cake and to have eaten it, it's not impossible to have a good phone and a hackable one, in a single device.
    - haswell 5y ago
      The cake thing was in response to you wanting Apple Watch and iMessage…on Android. This is the definition of wanting it both ways. I don’t think anyone would argue that it’s technically impossible, but that should not be mistaken with “practically impossible” given Apple’s business model.
      - jonny_eh 5y ago
        I don't want iMessage on Android, I want a hackable phone that supports iMessage too. I realize that's not really possible now, but it's not a logical impossibility, like being alive and dead at the same time.

Bayart 5y ago

>The device was never intended to be used this way in the first place. The manufacturer has no say on the usage, simple as that. That there are better ways to tinker is irrelevant. It doesn't preclude the right of people to tinker with anything they own at their own convenience, including an iPhone if that's what they got.

isodev 5y ago
I’m not disputing the right to do whatever you want with your phone. My comment was specifically targeting the fact that jail breaking somehow encourages people to develop means of circumventing the security of devices. This is when this becomes dangerous - suddenly it has the potential to hurt unsuspecting users. Saying that the responsibility is with Apple (or Google) to make this possible feels like a straw man argument - their job is to earn money (no illusions there) and keep users safe, even if it means making it harder to tinker (which also helps them earn money)
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  That's why we need changes to the law.
tarsinge 5y ago
Arbitrary separating the hardware from the OS is not the same thing as the manufacturer having a say on usage. Like I am free to use my car how I want, but that I may not be able to easily repair it or swap parts like the seats or the engine is another problem.
planb 5y ago
You are absolutely right. The manufacturer and the law has no say on the usage of a device I own. And still I cannot expect them to support a way of usage that was never intended. So Apple shouldn't be (and isn't) able to sue jailbreakers, but they don't have to make it easy for them.
- Siira 5y ago
  Apple’s security theater is the pillar of their anticompetitive behaviors. The only users it helps are noobs who will just install whatever. If some serious actor wants your data, the theater doesn’t deter them, as evidenced by this Pegasus. If China wants your data, Apple will hand it over themselves. It’s all a “think of the children” race-to-the-bottum where rent-seekers abuse fear and sycophanty to monopolize critical infrastructure.

JackGreyhat 5y ago

> I understand that around the 90s owning anything with an OS also implied the ability to mess with the box of bolts and circuits that run the OS but that’s no longer the case. At least not when it comes to phones. Incorrect. It is still the case with nearly all Android phones. You can install any OS version, gain full permissions, mess with kernels, modules, frameworks, recoveries, ...

acdha 5y ago
You mean all of the people I see complaining about locked bootloaders are mistaken?
- JackGreyhat 5y ago
  Thats because they bought a locked version, such as most carrier models.

ValentineC 5y ago

> I own my device without the need to root it, every feature in the brochure is available to me as a user. I'm not able to sideload iOS apps easily (apart from using AltStore), or downgrade apps at all. This becomes possible with a jailbreak. Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. iOS (Android too, I believe) actively prevents some data from being backed up or copied otherwise.

isodev 5y ago
Sideloading apps is not a feature of iOS. It is also illegal unless the app explicitly allows it in their license. If you need to be able to side load apps, you need a device intended for this purpose. Regarding data, all user data on iOS is backed up either through iCloud and/or on your Mac.
nojito 5y ago
So get another phone.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  How does this let you sideload iOS apps, or run older versions of them? That's like responding “just use Linux“ to a Windows user's complaint about Office.
acdha 5y ago
> Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. iOS (Android too, I believe) actively prevents some data from being backed up or copied otherwise. The primary area you see this is with applications which have flagged that data as sensitive so it won't be included on unecrypted backups (which includes iCloud). This is somewhat important for security — for example, you reasonably do not want TOTP seeds floating around invalidating your second factor security model — but it means you have a problem if an application you care about uses that feature in a way you don't anticipate.
techrat 5y ago
> Also, with a jailbreak, I own my data. Also with a jailbreak, other people own your data too. A jailbreak is an exploit. A hammer can be used to drive in a nail (jailbreak) or it can be used to smash windows (malware.) Same tool in the end. The very act of jailbreaking is what keeps your system vulnerable to the same exploits used by malicious actors.

_fat_santa 5y ago

I feel like Jailbreaking was much more of a thing about 10-12 years ago when the iPhone 3G/3GS and 4 came out. Around that time iOS was still pretty limited in what you could do . So Jailbreaking gave you the ability to: - Set a background wallpaper - Reply to SMS in a quick reply window (I still miss BiteSMS) - Create albums in Photos. - An "Android Like" (back then) quick toggle. Nowdays all these features and more are part of iOS, but back then Jailbreaking let you do so many things that Apple hadn't gotten around to including in iOS.

dpedu 5y ago
The primary point of jailbreaking is to be able to run native apps not approved by or banned by Apple and that is something you still cannot do.
- isodev 5y ago
  Yes, it’s very unfortunate when an app is not available for some reason. In most cases it’s a valid reason - the app is malicious, poorly made or somehow in conflict with local law. Also imagine if you are an app developer an suddenly your project (on which you’ve spent countless hours of hard work) is unexpectedly leaked as freely available for download and side-loading. I’m not talking big Corps like epic and blizzard … but people like you and me. Open source apps can be loaded easily, so developers who really want to make their stuff available can still do so and users won’t need to hack their phones to get such apps. But of course this can’t happen en masse.
  - dpedu 5y ago
    The affect of piracy is generally overstated and commonly bundled with the (incorrect) belief that a pirate would instead be a paying customer if the piracy option was not available.
    - draugadrotten 5y ago
      The Steam model appears to be way better. I am buying 10x more things on Steam than I will ever have time to use, while I generally avoid Appstore as much as possible for Mac apps (and even for phone apps when there is an alternative) The psychology of the Steam store is very different from the Appstore.

14 5y ago

I use my device to scratch my nose who is anyone to tell me how to use my device after I purchase it? A jailbroken iPhone has been useful in so many ways over the years. Currently I am not jailbroken but wish I was just to see all the cool mods I could have access too. There are so many useful tools it blew my mind all the missing features Apple left out. Hell when I bought the phone Rogers sold me a video messaging plan. Sure was surprised to learn the original iPhone didn’t even have native video recording. I was however able to jailbreak and download Cycorder and suddenly I could use my device not as it was intended I guess but super useful to me. Your point of view seems so narrow minded to me.

aj3 5y ago

Well, some people want to have root access to study iOS internals, debug software, look for forensic artefacts and unknown vulnerabilities.