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I think that you’re assuming that the hybrid in mind has plug in, otherwise you’re not really making the case for using gas to inevitably charge the battery (re

I think that you’re assuming that the hybrid in mind has plug in, otherwise you’re not really making the case for using gas to inevitably charge the battery (regenerative braking still requires having had some speed generated by gas). As far as I know, the vast majority of hybrids that Toyota makes are not plug in.

ErikVandeWater 5y ago
> I think that you’re assuming that the hybrid in mind has plug in, otherwise you’re not really making the case for using gas to inevitably charge the battery (regenerative braking still requires having had some speed generated by gas). This logic is plain silly. You're not simultaneously on the gas and the brakes at the same time. The weight of the batteries and electric motors pales in comparison to the whole vehicle.
- w-j-w 5y ago
  The difference is how the electricity in the battery is generated. Even if your local power grid runs on coal, the electricity coming out of the wall is WAY greener than electricity coming from the gas motor. If a hybrid doesn't plug in, then the only way to get electricity into the battery is by using energy which is created by running the gas engine. Sometimes this is direct, and sometimes this energy first gets turned into momentum of the car to be later reclaimed by regenerative braking. It doesn't matter that they don't happen at the same time.
dekhn 5y ago
regenerative braking doesn't care what mechanism you used to get to a speed. If I want to charge the battery, I can press a button and the gas engine comes on and charges the battery directly. Regen is just to reduce loss due to wasted kintec energy.
pkolaczk 5y ago
The non-plugin hybrids are just as environmentally friendly as full electric cars, because they have 10x-20x smaller battery and that makes a huge difference in initial emissions. The OP likely wrote about PHEVs which indeed have batteries 3x-5x smaller than BEVs. If you count in all the related emissions, hybrids seems to be the greenest cars you can get now: https://greenercars.org/greenest-meanest/greenest https://greenercars.org/greenest-meanest/greenest
- zamfi 5y ago
  Huh? That link suggests the top two greenest vehicles are EVs, and 7 of the top 12 are EVs, with 3 of the rest being PHEV, and the bottom two are standard hybrids. What am I missing?
  - pkolaczk 5y ago
    Fair point - but they are very close. The fact that at least some hybrids are more green than some full electric cars tells something. But this ranking doesn't include the other factors like price tag or convenience (range, time to refuel). If you additionally count these factors in, it turns out hybrids are the fastest way to get emissions down by bringing environmental friendly cars to the masses. They are a solution that exists today, and they are a plug-in replacement for ICEs. I can see hybrid cars very frequently on the streets, but fully electric cars not so much - so the effects on lowering emissions is bigger for HEVs than for BEVs. And you don't need to donate them to convince people to buy. Also a lot depends on where you get electricity to charge the BEV from. In theory you can charge only from renewable energy sources, but in many areas you still burn fossil fuels, and in these areas hybrids are way more ecofriendly: https://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-friendly-cars-2013-16318 https://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-fri...
    - zamfi 5y ago
      > In theory you can charge only from renewable energy sources, but in many areas you still burn fossil fuels, and in these areas hybrids are way more ecofriendly Now, maybe (though nowhere on your site does it even remotely suggest "way more") -- but one difference is that as the grid greens, EVs become more and more ecofriendly every year. As ICE engine age, they become less and less ecofriendly every year. The site you cite mentions this too, and probably underestimates how quickly the grid will green, and how quickly batteries will require less energy to create, and how much of that initial input energy can be recovered in recycling. > I can see hybrid cars very frequently on the streets, but fully electric cars not so much I see more Teslas than Priuses in the SF Bay these days. I expect other areas will catch up.

ErikVandeWater 5y ago

> I think that you’re assuming that the hybrid in mind has plug in, otherwise you’re not really making the case for using gas to inevitably charge the battery (regenerative braking still requires having had some speed generated by gas). This logic is plain silly. You're not simultaneously on the gas and the brakes at the same time. The weight of the batteries and electric motors pales in comparison to the whole vehicle.

w-j-w 5y ago
The difference is how the electricity in the battery is generated. Even if your local power grid runs on coal, the electricity coming out of the wall is WAY greener than electricity coming from the gas motor. If a hybrid doesn't plug in, then the only way to get electricity into the battery is by using energy which is created by running the gas engine. Sometimes this is direct, and sometimes this energy first gets turned into momentum of the car to be later reclaimed by regenerative braking. It doesn't matter that they don't happen at the same time.

dekhn 5y ago

regenerative braking doesn't care what mechanism you used to get to a speed. If I want to charge the battery, I can press a button and the gas engine comes on and charges the battery directly. Regen is just to reduce loss due to wasted kintec energy.

pkolaczk 5y ago

The non-plugin hybrids are just as environmentally friendly as full electric cars, because they have 10x-20x smaller battery and that makes a huge difference in initial emissions. The OP likely wrote about PHEVs which indeed have batteries 3x-5x smaller than BEVs. If you count in all the related emissions, hybrids seems to be the greenest cars you can get now: https://greenercars.org/greenest-meanest/greenest https://greenercars.org/greenest-meanest/greenest

zamfi 5y ago
Huh? That link suggests the top two greenest vehicles are EVs, and 7 of the top 12 are EVs, with 3 of the rest being PHEV, and the bottom two are standard hybrids. What am I missing?
- pkolaczk 5y ago
  Fair point - but they are very close. The fact that at least some hybrids are more green than some full electric cars tells something. But this ranking doesn't include the other factors like price tag or convenience (range, time to refuel). If you additionally count these factors in, it turns out hybrids are the fastest way to get emissions down by bringing environmental friendly cars to the masses. They are a solution that exists today, and they are a plug-in replacement for ICEs. I can see hybrid cars very frequently on the streets, but fully electric cars not so much - so the effects on lowering emissions is bigger for HEVs than for BEVs. And you don't need to donate them to convince people to buy. Also a lot depends on where you get electricity to charge the BEV from. In theory you can charge only from renewable energy sources, but in many areas you still burn fossil fuels, and in these areas hybrids are way more ecofriendly: https://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-friendly-cars-2013-16318 https://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-fri...
  - zamfi 5y ago
    > In theory you can charge only from renewable energy sources, but in many areas you still burn fossil fuels, and in these areas hybrids are way more ecofriendly Now, maybe (though nowhere on your site does it even remotely suggest "way more") -- but one difference is that as the grid greens, EVs become more and more ecofriendly every year. As ICE engine age, they become less and less ecofriendly every year. The site you cite mentions this too, and probably underestimates how quickly the grid will green, and how quickly batteries will require less energy to create, and how much of that initial input energy can be recovered in recycling. > I can see hybrid cars very frequently on the streets, but fully electric cars not so much I see more Teslas than Priuses in the SF Bay these days. I expect other areas will catch up.