5 ms·

Is this just your opinion, or do you actually have data to back up your claims here? I ask because there was a 5 year old study that illustrated that in 2016 8

by ygjb 5y ago

Is this just your opinion, or do you actually have data to back up your claims here? I ask because there was a 5 year old study that illustrated that in 2016 87% of trips were within range for an electric vehicle with overnight charging. https://www.nature.com/articles/nenergy2016112 https://www.nature.com/articles/nenergy2016112 Range anxiety is a real thing, but we settled on a PHEV SUV with a 40km range last year due to not finding the right mix of towing capacity and range in an electric vehicle (we need to routinely use a trailer that can haul >1500 lbs for business reasons). That 40km range covers approximately 3/4 quarters (74.38) of our routine driving (I actually have this data, we were surprised that it came out to such a round number!) We expect to sell our current vehicle and switch to a full electric SUV with similar capabilities once they are available in 2021/2022.

nradov 5y ago
Range isn't the problem, lack of charging stations is. Drive around any city at night and look how many cars are parked overnight on streets and in parking lots with no chargers anywhere near. That infrastructure can be built but it will take decades.
- fattire 5y ago
  Why would it take decades?
  - nradov 5y ago
    Equipment costs, limited city budgets, permit process, labor availability, local transformer capacity, etc.
    - theshrike79 5y ago
      A charging station costs an order of magnitude less than a petrol station Why would cities need to pay a dime for charging infrastructure? There are commercial vendors doing just fine. Which do you think is the hardest to get a permit for? 1) underground tank for thousands of gallons of explosive liquid that's bad for the environment if it leaks 2) overground tank of pressurised explosive gas known for its ability to leak out of every container 3) a big-ass electric socket As for labor, you need an electrician with a high voltage certificate. Not a exactly rare, hard to train, commodity. Maybe a dude with a backhoe to dig the wires. Local transformer capacity is highly variable, some areas might have issues, others might not. A charging station can bring stability to unstable networks if paired with a battery bank to offset the load. (And maybe even make $$ by charging it during low load and feed back during peak hours).
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  That's okay if it takes decades because the average age of vehicles on the road today is 12 years. It's going to take a LONG time to convert everyone over.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  Not true. You don't need to charge everywhere you park. One can park at home, at the office or at the mall. One is enough, and once a week, too. So that's already less than 7%. And since the vast majority of households have a plug at home, you can probably divide that by 3.
  - fredophile 5y ago
    I disagree. You're overlooking the psychological aspects. Range anxiety is real. You might not need to charge up more than once a week but if you're down to 1 day or less of range do you really want to count on the fact that there is a free charger available when you get to your destination? I live in a condo so charging at home isn't an option. If I had an EV I'd probably start to get anxious when it gets down to somewhere around 1/3 of the charge left.
    - ygjb 5y ago
      > I live in a condo so charging at home isn't an option. Why not? Why not join your strata or hmo board and change that? Why not lobby your local jurisdiction to add these kind of requirements to new construction, or pass by-laws or laws at the right level to require condo buildings to allow individuals to install chargers? All of these complaints are passive and indicate that you don't have agency in this situation. These types of changes don't happen unless people push back against the status quo. I am always shocked when I see so many people participating on a message board that is designed for people who want to move fast and break things just... accept... the way the world around them is.
      - fredophile 5y ago
        Lobbying for it in new construction doesn't help my situation. I could convince the HOA to install chargers in all the parking spots but that would lead to a big special assessment and raise the HOA fees to cover the increased electricity use. That seems like a big hassle for the option to charge at home if I still live in the building several years from now when I replace my current car.
  - 5y ago
throwawaysea 5y ago
The issues I see are that EVs can't charge quickly, charging stations can't cycle cars quickly, EV range varies on additional conditions like temperature, and you can't self-sufficiently extend an EV's range. To clarify that last issue, you could fill a gas can with additional gallons of fuel to extend your range, cover yourself for an emergency situation, etc. But you cannot do this with EVs. You can't just carry a jug of extra charge or operate without the grid being nearby, online, and available. I understand that there is always some level of dependency we have on large infrastructure, but gas vehicles let you have a longer period of reliable self-sufficiency compared to EVs. I am confident the vast majority of daily trips can be covered by an EV. But I still need a gas car to do things on the weekend, to go places on holidays, to feel secure in my ability to transport myself or loved ones at will, etc. When hauling people and gear, can I really rely on the stated range of an electric SUV to go offroad to a campsite and come back? I'd feel better if they let me carry an additional battery pack in the trunk/bed to extend range but that seems to not be a focus right now. So EVs basically seem like they preclude certain use cases entirely. In a multi-car household, I still see the need for at least one gas vehicle, and don't agree with bans that try to phase them out entirely as a result.
- ygjb 5y ago
  Your concerns are basically straight up range anxiety. Anecdotally speaking, my previous vehicle was the only one out of 4 vehicles on camping trips for several years that had mechanical issues. The simple reality is that in most of North America you are less than 2 hours away from help in case of mechanical defect. Inside the United States, with few exceptions, it's must closer. You are just as vulnerable to mechanical failure with a gas vehicle as you are with an electric vehicle. That said, it's currently a consumer choice, but as a tax payer and a consumer I desperately want my (Canadian) government to end all subsidies for fossil fuel industries, and introduce additional taxes with a direct path to those taxes being used to subsidize and invest in electric alternatives.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    What is the breakdown of electrical power generation in your area of Canada? Your EV may still be mostly/entirely fossil-fueled.
luma 5y ago
I suspect the point was more centered around access to charging facilities. Range is less of a problem if you have access to a charging point overnight. For those that park on-street or in public garages without charging available, range is far more of a problem unless you plan to take a few hours out of your day to hang out at a charging facility. That group of people would include a pretty substantial portion of those living in dense urban environments.
bluGill 5y ago
> 87% of trips were within range for an electric vehicle with overnight charging That is the wrong number. The real number in question is what % of cars never do any other trip. 90% of my trips might be within range of an overnight charge, but my parent's house isn't on that list, so there will be several times per year that I will make a trip that isn't within range of an overnight charge. (My parent's are too close to making flying a reasonable choice)

by ygjb 5y ago

nradov 5y ago

Range isn't the problem, lack of charging stations is. Drive around any city at night and look how many cars are parked overnight on streets and in parking lots with no chargers anywhere near. That infrastructure can be built but it will take decades.

fattire 5y ago
Why would it take decades?
- nradov 5y ago
  Equipment costs, limited city budgets, permit process, labor availability, local transformer capacity, etc.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    A charging station costs an order of magnitude less than a petrol station Why would cities need to pay a dime for charging infrastructure? There are commercial vendors doing just fine. Which do you think is the hardest to get a permit for? 1) underground tank for thousands of gallons of explosive liquid that's bad for the environment if it leaks 2) overground tank of pressurised explosive gas known for its ability to leak out of every container 3) a big-ass electric socket As for labor, you need an electrician with a high voltage certificate. Not a exactly rare, hard to train, commodity. Maybe a dude with a backhoe to dig the wires. Local transformer capacity is highly variable, some areas might have issues, others might not. A charging station can bring stability to unstable networks if paired with a battery bank to offset the load. (And maybe even make $$ by charging it during low load and feed back during peak hours).
Consultant32452 5y ago
That's okay if it takes decades because the average age of vehicles on the road today is 12 years. It's going to take a LONG time to convert everyone over.
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
Not true. You don't need to charge everywhere you park. One can park at home, at the office or at the mall. One is enough, and once a week, too. So that's already less than 7%. And since the vast majority of households have a plug at home, you can probably divide that by 3.
- fredophile 5y ago
  I disagree. You're overlooking the psychological aspects. Range anxiety is real. You might not need to charge up more than once a week but if you're down to 1 day or less of range do you really want to count on the fact that there is a free charger available when you get to your destination? I live in a condo so charging at home isn't an option. If I had an EV I'd probably start to get anxious when it gets down to somewhere around 1/3 of the charge left.
  - ygjb 5y ago
    > I live in a condo so charging at home isn't an option. Why not? Why not join your strata or hmo board and change that? Why not lobby your local jurisdiction to add these kind of requirements to new construction, or pass by-laws or laws at the right level to require condo buildings to allow individuals to install chargers? All of these complaints are passive and indicate that you don't have agency in this situation. These types of changes don't happen unless people push back against the status quo. I am always shocked when I see so many people participating on a message board that is designed for people who want to move fast and break things just... accept... the way the world around them is.
    - fredophile 5y ago
      Lobbying for it in new construction doesn't help my situation. I could convince the HOA to install chargers in all the parking spots but that would lead to a big special assessment and raise the HOA fees to cover the increased electricity use. That seems like a big hassle for the option to charge at home if I still live in the building several years from now when I replace my current car.
- 5y ago

throwawaysea 5y ago

The issues I see are that EVs can't charge quickly, charging stations can't cycle cars quickly, EV range varies on additional conditions like temperature, and you can't self-sufficiently extend an EV's range. To clarify that last issue, you could fill a gas can with additional gallons of fuel to extend your range, cover yourself for an emergency situation, etc. But you cannot do this with EVs. You can't just carry a jug of extra charge or operate without the grid being nearby, online, and available. I understand that there is always some level of dependency we have on large infrastructure, but gas vehicles let you have a longer period of reliable self-sufficiency compared to EVs. I am confident the vast majority of daily trips can be covered by an EV. But I still need a gas car to do things on the weekend, to go places on holidays, to feel secure in my ability to transport myself or loved ones at will, etc. When hauling people and gear, can I really rely on the stated range of an electric SUV to go offroad to a campsite and come back? I'd feel better if they let me carry an additional battery pack in the trunk/bed to extend range but that seems to not be a focus right now. So EVs basically seem like they preclude certain use cases entirely. In a multi-car household, I still see the need for at least one gas vehicle, and don't agree with bans that try to phase them out entirely as a result.

ygjb 5y ago
Your concerns are basically straight up range anxiety. Anecdotally speaking, my previous vehicle was the only one out of 4 vehicles on camping trips for several years that had mechanical issues. The simple reality is that in most of North America you are less than 2 hours away from help in case of mechanical defect. Inside the United States, with few exceptions, it's must closer. You are just as vulnerable to mechanical failure with a gas vehicle as you are with an electric vehicle. That said, it's currently a consumer choice, but as a tax payer and a consumer I desperately want my (Canadian) government to end all subsidies for fossil fuel industries, and introduce additional taxes with a direct path to those taxes being used to subsidize and invest in electric alternatives.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  What is the breakdown of electrical power generation in your area of Canada? Your EV may still be mostly/entirely fossil-fueled.

luma 5y ago

I suspect the point was more centered around access to charging facilities. Range is less of a problem if you have access to a charging point overnight. For those that park on-street or in public garages without charging available, range is far more of a problem unless you plan to take a few hours out of your day to hang out at a charging facility. That group of people would include a pretty substantial portion of those living in dense urban environments.

bluGill 5y ago

> 87% of trips were within range for an electric vehicle with overnight charging That is the wrong number. The real number in question is what % of cars never do any other trip. 90% of my trips might be within range of an overnight charge, but my parent's house isn't on that list, so there will be several times per year that I will make a trip that isn't within range of an overnight charge. (My parent's are too close to making flying a reasonable choice)