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Toyota might be smart enough to realize that Tesla has a supply chain that will be difficult to beat. It's going to be a shit-show among the remaining contender

Toyota might be smart enough to realize that Tesla has a supply chain that will be difficult to beat. It's going to be a shit-show among the remaining contenders once all of their hands are forced.

mullen 5y ago
But Toyota has build quality that Tesla can't touch. Toyota won't be starting from scratch, they will starting from the point of making great high quality ICE vehicles and converting those to EV. Tesla build quality is not that great but they have better tech and understanding of their EV customers than Toyota does.
- karmicthreat 5y ago
  Toyota isn't the shining star it once was. Cost cutting has pulled Toyota vehicles much closer to the industry average. As well as the general quality level of American and korean automakers improving over the last 10 years. Notable exceptions being the Prius and some of the Lexus lineup.
  - nixass 5y ago
    Well if Toyota is "bad" then Tesla is at best on par with some eastern European manufacturers.
    - slaw 5y ago
      Are there any Eastern European manufactures left?
      - Peanuts99 5y ago
        Skoda (although owned by VW) are eastern European and they make extremely reliable cars owing to using all the VW technology a few years after its deployed and fixed. About everywhere I go Skoda seems to be the brand of choice for taxi drivers - usually a good sign.
      - nixass 5y ago
        There's Dacia (owned by Renault), that uses old Renault's tech. They're usually entry level models with poor build quality but good value for money, nothing more than that
  - jrsj 5y ago
    To an extent yes but American companies have cut costs more aggressively in assembly (Toyota and Honda are more American made in parts & labor than Ford & GM these days) which has caused issues & their approach to fuel efficiency of small turbocharged GDI engines has negative implications for reliability that really can’t be overcome with any amount of engineering. In terms of reliability of powertrains, yes it’s much better than it was in the past but shit that blows up in the 200k-300k mile range frequently is still far from ideal Look at the new Bronco Sport as an example. It’s fairly small, but a 1.5L turbo 3? That’s not something that’s built to last 20 years without any major complications.
evgen 5y ago
Toyota ships more vehicles every quarter than Tesla has shipped over its entire existence. The idea that it has some sort of supply chain that others envy is laughable. What is going to be fun to watch over the rest of the decade is how quickly Tesla fades into the background as the rest of the industry slowly pivots to EV. Once three or four of the major manufacturers reach the point that more than 50% of their sales are EV I expect Tesla to quietly disappear in a merger with some EV also-ran that needs to play catch-up (the name may stick around, but the company will be absorbed by the acquirer.)
- DanTheManPR 5y ago
  I wondered about the claim in the first sentence, but it is true. Toyota and it's subsidiaries produced ~9.5million vehicles in 2020, or ~2.4million per quarter. Tesla's total vehicle sales since it's foundation are ~1.4million. To be fair to Tesla, they have expanded quite a bit in the last few years, producing 0.5million vehicles in 2020. Even with that expansion, their rate of output is only 5% of Toyota's.
- bob33212 5y ago
  I have been hearing this since 2014. What is the holdup? Why is Toyota not going to sell 1M electric cars in 2022 if they have such a great company?
  - woeirua 5y ago
    Because the "best" electric car company in the world is barely eeking out a profit from selling a million cars a year, and even then only through regulatory credits, Bitcoin shenanigans, and outright fraud with FSD. That said, I am bullish long term on EVs and hope to convert my primary car to an EV next year.
  - evgen 5y ago
    Probably because neither the market nor the real supply chain was ready. Ford sells more F-150s per year than Tesla sells across all models. When the F-150 Lightning takes off and ramps up production you can expect the consequences to be felt across the entire Ford lineup and for things to start moving quickly. (As others have noted, Toyota bought into hydrogen and its hybrids so it is not going to be an EV leader any time soon, but other majors are moving fast and will soon leave Tesla behind.)
Daishiman 5y ago
Tesla has, to put it lightly, a horribly crappy manufacturing process. Toyota's by comparison is the pinnacle of iterative industrial manufacturing.

Toyota might be smart enough to realize that Tesla has a supply chain that will be difficult to beat. It's going to be a shit-show among the remaining contenders once all of their hands are forced.

mullen 5y ago

But Toyota has build quality that Tesla can't touch. Toyota won't be starting from scratch, they will starting from the point of making great high quality ICE vehicles and converting those to EV. Tesla build quality is not that great but they have better tech and understanding of their EV customers than Toyota does.

karmicthreat 5y ago
Toyota isn't the shining star it once was. Cost cutting has pulled Toyota vehicles much closer to the industry average. As well as the general quality level of American and korean automakers improving over the last 10 years. Notable exceptions being the Prius and some of the Lexus lineup.
- nixass 5y ago
  Well if Toyota is "bad" then Tesla is at best on par with some eastern European manufacturers.
  - slaw 5y ago
    Are there any Eastern European manufactures left?
    - Peanuts99 5y ago
      Skoda (although owned by VW) are eastern European and they make extremely reliable cars owing to using all the VW technology a few years after its deployed and fixed. About everywhere I go Skoda seems to be the brand of choice for taxi drivers - usually a good sign.
    - nixass 5y ago
      There's Dacia (owned by Renault), that uses old Renault's tech. They're usually entry level models with poor build quality but good value for money, nothing more than that
- jrsj 5y ago
  To an extent yes but American companies have cut costs more aggressively in assembly (Toyota and Honda are more American made in parts & labor than Ford & GM these days) which has caused issues & their approach to fuel efficiency of small turbocharged GDI engines has negative implications for reliability that really can’t be overcome with any amount of engineering. In terms of reliability of powertrains, yes it’s much better than it was in the past but shit that blows up in the 200k-300k mile range frequently is still far from ideal Look at the new Bronco Sport as an example. It’s fairly small, but a 1.5L turbo 3? That’s not something that’s built to last 20 years without any major complications.

evgen 5y ago

Toyota ships more vehicles every quarter than Tesla has shipped over its entire existence. The idea that it has some sort of supply chain that others envy is laughable. What is going to be fun to watch over the rest of the decade is how quickly Tesla fades into the background as the rest of the industry slowly pivots to EV. Once three or four of the major manufacturers reach the point that more than 50% of their sales are EV I expect Tesla to quietly disappear in a merger with some EV also-ran that needs to play catch-up (the name may stick around, but the company will be absorbed by the acquirer.)

DanTheManPR 5y ago
I wondered about the claim in the first sentence, but it is true. Toyota and it's subsidiaries produced ~9.5million vehicles in 2020, or ~2.4million per quarter. Tesla's total vehicle sales since it's foundation are ~1.4million. To be fair to Tesla, they have expanded quite a bit in the last few years, producing 0.5million vehicles in 2020. Even with that expansion, their rate of output is only 5% of Toyota's.
bob33212 5y ago
I have been hearing this since 2014. What is the holdup? Why is Toyota not going to sell 1M electric cars in 2022 if they have such a great company?
- woeirua 5y ago
  Because the "best" electric car company in the world is barely eeking out a profit from selling a million cars a year, and even then only through regulatory credits, Bitcoin shenanigans, and outright fraud with FSD. That said, I am bullish long term on EVs and hope to convert my primary car to an EV next year.
- evgen 5y ago
  Probably because neither the market nor the real supply chain was ready. Ford sells more F-150s per year than Tesla sells across all models. When the F-150 Lightning takes off and ramps up production you can expect the consequences to be felt across the entire Ford lineup and for things to start moving quickly. (As others have noted, Toyota bought into hydrogen and its hybrids so it is not going to be an EV leader any time soon, but other majors are moving fast and will soon leave Tesla behind.)

Daishiman 5y ago

Tesla has, to put it lightly, a horribly crappy manufacturing process. Toyota's by comparison is the pinnacle of iterative industrial manufacturing.