8 ms·

Germany was setting an example, until they shut down their nuclear and went back to coal.

by wrycoder 5y ago

cogman10 5y ago
That was such a terrible move. It made no sense.
- edhelas 5y ago
  Don't worry, they are planning to turn off coal completely around 2035… and replace them with natural gas plants imported from Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    It's not like Russia has a long history of having "pipeline malfunctions" during periods of intense international disagreements. What could go wrong with Germans being firmly under the thumb of Putin or his successor?
  - glogla 5y ago
    Yeah, improving nothing as natural gas has similar OC2e to coal (with much smaller CO2 - but the methane makes up for it, to it comes up the same), while giving money to Europe's enemies. Perfect.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    Natural gas will cut emissions in half and the new plans for the coal exit are going to be 2030.
- zeristor 5y ago
  On the flipside didn't Germany really jump start solar power?
defaultname 5y ago
Fossil fuel's use in German power production is falling faster than their nuclear mix is. They never "went back to coal". In reality renewables now account for almost double nuclear's output at its peak. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2020-source.png?itok=i-kda7MS https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... Germany is absolutely a great example, even if it somehow became the target for the weird cadre of nuclear boosters.
- edhelas 5y ago
  They can thanks Sweden, Finland, France and a few other neighboors to provide them with plenty of electricity and hydraulic backup when they need it (no wind at night). France is sending around 2 to 4 GW of electricity (so mostly nuclear) to Germany all the time, "except" when there is plenty of wind, then France is buying for a really cheap price (sometimes negative) what Germany can't use. See https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-echanges-commerciaux-aux-frontieres https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-echanges-commerciaux-... 2 to 4 GW is roughly 2 to 4 nuclear reactors at 100%, so one/two nuclear powerplants "on an average usage". You can't say that you exited nuclear (or any other kind of energy) when you're massively, and really often, importing electricity from this source from across the borders. And your graph is pretty clear. Germany didn't "removed fossil fuel", they replaced around 100GW of coal with 50GW of natural gas + renewable. To me natural gas is still a fossil fuel (with a lighter co2 impact than coal indeed). And in the end the result is https://www.electricitymap.org/map https://www.electricitymap.org/map 5 to 10x more CO² impact than France per kwh, even with 2x the nuclear plants setup in France (60GW of nuclear in France against 60GW of wind turbines and 60GW of solar panels in Germany).
  - cool_dude85 5y ago
    >(no wind at night) No, wind at night!
  - pydry 5y ago
    The data shows natural gas usage has been pretty much static for a decade: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2020-source.png?itok=i-kda7MS https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... Germany is also a net exporter of electricity and exported 13.7Twh more than it imported from France.
bildung 5y ago
> Germany was setting an example, until they shut down their nuclear and went back to coal. No idea why this gets repeated here so often, but this statement is simply wrong. From 2013 to 2020 nuclear as share of Germany's energy mix went from 17% to 13%. https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&year=2020&interval=year https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&... During the same time, coal went from 45% to 23%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany So yes, nuclear is 4% lower, but coal is 22% lower.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > nuclear as share of Germany's energy mix went from 17% to 13% > During the same time, coal went from 45% to 23% Although it's true, it could go like this: Nuclear as share went from 17% to 20%; coal from 45% to 20%.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    Sure it could be better, but it’s neither shutting down all the nuclear nor failing to set a good example about reducing coal-based electricity.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      Germany actually is going to shut down all the nuclear: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961243
- wrycoder 5y ago
  Coal: per Wikipedia: Germany has been opening new coal power plants until recently, following a 2007 plan to build 26 new coal plants. This has been controversial in light of Germany's commitment to curbing carbon emissions. But they changed direction - I didn't know that: On 26 January 2019, [a decision was made] to close all 84 coal plants in the country by 2038...Coal was used to generate almost 40% of the country's electricity in 2018 and is expected to be replaced by renewable energy and natural gas. 24 coal plants are planned to be closed by 2022 with all but 8 closed by 2030. Nuclear: per Wikipedia: A coalition government of Gerhard Schroeder took the decision in 2002 to phaseout all nuclear power by 2022...Within days of the March 2011 Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, large anti-nuclear protests occurred in Germany...Merkel's government announced that it would close all of its nuclear power plants by 2022. Eight of the seventeen operating reactors in Germany were permanently shut down following Fukushima in 2011. German coal consumption has risen during 2011, 2012 and 2013. (but is now decreasing) Germany nuclear is 13%, but most of that is imported from France at this point, I think. So, no coal, no nuclear, hate natural gas - depend on renewables.

Germany was setting an example, until they shut down their nuclear and went back to coal.

cogman10 5y ago

That was such a terrible move. It made no sense.

edhelas 5y ago
Don't worry, they are planning to turn off coal completely around 2035… and replace them with natural gas plants imported from Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream
- merpnderp 5y ago
  It's not like Russia has a long history of having "pipeline malfunctions" during periods of intense international disagreements. What could go wrong with Germans being firmly under the thumb of Putin or his successor?
- glogla 5y ago
  Yeah, improving nothing as natural gas has similar OC2e to coal (with much smaller CO2 - but the methane makes up for it, to it comes up the same), while giving money to Europe's enemies. Perfect.
- imtringued 5y ago
  Natural gas will cut emissions in half and the new plans for the coal exit are going to be 2030.
zeristor 5y ago
On the flipside didn't Germany really jump start solar power?

defaultname 5y ago

Fossil fuel's use in German power production is falling faster than their nuclear mix is. They never "went back to coal". In reality renewables now account for almost double nuclear's output at its peak. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2020-source.png?itok=i-kda7MS https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... Germany is absolutely a great example, even if it somehow became the target for the weird cadre of nuclear boosters.

edhelas 5y ago
They can thanks Sweden, Finland, France and a few other neighboors to provide them with plenty of electricity and hydraulic backup when they need it (no wind at night). France is sending around 2 to 4 GW of electricity (so mostly nuclear) to Germany all the time, "except" when there is plenty of wind, then France is buying for a really cheap price (sometimes negative) what Germany can't use. See https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-echanges-commerciaux-aux-frontieres https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-echanges-commerciaux-... 2 to 4 GW is roughly 2 to 4 nuclear reactors at 100%, so one/two nuclear powerplants "on an average usage". You can't say that you exited nuclear (or any other kind of energy) when you're massively, and really often, importing electricity from this source from across the borders. And your graph is pretty clear. Germany didn't "removed fossil fuel", they replaced around 100GW of coal with 50GW of natural gas + renewable. To me natural gas is still a fossil fuel (with a lighter co2 impact than coal indeed). And in the end the result is https://www.electricitymap.org/map https://www.electricitymap.org/map 5 to 10x more CO² impact than France per kwh, even with 2x the nuclear plants setup in France (60GW of nuclear in France against 60GW of wind turbines and 60GW of solar panels in Germany).
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  >(no wind at night) No, wind at night!
- pydry 5y ago
  The data shows natural gas usage has been pretty much static for a decade: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2020-source.png?itok=i-kda7MS https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g... Germany is also a net exporter of electricity and exported 13.7Twh more than it imported from France.

bildung 5y ago

> Germany was setting an example, until they shut down their nuclear and went back to coal. No idea why this gets repeated here so often, but this statement is simply wrong. From 2013 to 2020 nuclear as share of Germany's energy mix went from 17% to 13%. https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&year=2020&interval=year https://energy-charts.info/charts/energy_pie/chart.htm?l=en&... During the same time, coal went from 45% to 23%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany So yes, nuclear is 4% lower, but coal is 22% lower.

fsflover 5y ago
> nuclear as share of Germany's energy mix went from 17% to 13% > During the same time, coal went from 45% to 23% Although it's true, it could go like this: Nuclear as share went from 17% to 20%; coal from 45% to 20%.
- ben_w 5y ago
  Sure it could be better, but it’s neither shutting down all the nuclear nor failing to set a good example about reducing coal-based electricity.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Germany actually is going to shut down all the nuclear: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961243
wrycoder 5y ago
Coal: per Wikipedia: Germany has been opening new coal power plants until recently, following a 2007 plan to build 26 new coal plants. This has been controversial in light of Germany's commitment to curbing carbon emissions. But they changed direction - I didn't know that: On 26 January 2019, [a decision was made] to close all 84 coal plants in the country by 2038...Coal was used to generate almost 40% of the country's electricity in 2018 and is expected to be replaced by renewable energy and natural gas. 24 coal plants are planned to be closed by 2022 with all but 8 closed by 2030. Nuclear: per Wikipedia: A coalition government of Gerhard Schroeder took the decision in 2002 to phaseout all nuclear power by 2022...Within days of the March 2011 Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, large anti-nuclear protests occurred in Germany...Merkel's government announced that it would close all of its nuclear power plants by 2022. Eight of the seventeen operating reactors in Germany were permanently shut down following Fukushima in 2011. German coal consumption has risen during 2011, 2012 and 2013. (but is now decreasing) Germany nuclear is 13%, but most of that is imported from France at this point, I think. So, no coal, no nuclear, hate natural gas - depend on renewables.