4 ms·

Why you think that Germany has a lot of good and cheap engineers? I think the biggest problem that low salaries are causing there is that people with some(5+ ye

Why you think that Germany has a lot of good and cheap engineers? I think the biggest problem that low salaries are causing there is that people with some(5+ years) experience are moving either to Switzerland/US or to freelance for Switzerland/US companies. So, there's big deficit of experienced engineers. German companies are trying to solve it by inviting Eastern European/Indian/Asian workers, that are cheaper, but that results in mediocre one staying and exploiting job security system and good ones moving to Switzerland/US or back to native country(where foreign experience can help them to get to higher managerial positions).

bluGill 5y ago
As I said, the union has enough benefits that the value of higher salary positions isn't worth it to many. In the union you are not allowed to work more than 36 hours a week (I might have the numbers off a bit?) and they check to ensure that. Non-union can work longer hours, in practice they don't, but they are allowed to. There are a number of other things like that, the one lead engineer I work with in Germany doesn't think they are worth it, but the majority do. The above is about great engineers who are holding themselves back. I have no doubt that those who are willing to not be in the union are also willing to leave the country leading to some brain drain, but many are also holding themselves back as well.
- GrigoriyMikh 5y ago
  What's "the union"? I never heard about it. Not a single engineer that i know personally is in this union(or at least they are hiding that). And literally all of them planning to leave Germany once the good opportunity arrives. Also, i know personally almost 20 engineers who left the country only for better pay and that's during pandemic only.
  - benjaminsuch 5y ago
    Labor Union. But if a Lead Engineer needs a Labor Union for his benefits, then he does something clearly wrong.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Depends on the industry, different industries get different unions. I believe the ones I work with are in the steel workers union, but since I don't live in Germany I'm sure. I just know they find their union worth it.
  - apflkx 5y ago
    Many German companies (BMW, Siemens, Bosch, BASF, ...) historically cooperate with unions like "IG Metall". Unions win benefits for their members, but companies usually pass these benefits on to all employees. These benefits typically include: 35-hour work week, regular and performance-independent salary increases for all employees, at least 6 weeks of vacation per year, parental leave beyond the legal minimum, training and job placement if your current job is eliminated, etc. If you are a developer working for one of these companies, the union contracts will always affect you, even if you are not a union member. It is hard to tell if you are in a better or worse situation as a developer when you work in such a company. Many employees in such companies would like to have a 40-hour week, because that would result in higher pay. Unions, however, push to allow 40-hour weeks only to a small percentage of the workforce on the grounds that if the workload is higher, it should be compensated by new hires instead of overtime for existing employees, since more employees also means more union members and thus more power for unions.
    - formerly_proven 5y ago
      > regular and performance-independent salary increases for all employees What country are you talking about?
      - apflkx 5y ago
        Germany, if the collective agreement for the metal and electrical industry applies to you [1]: 4.3 % pay increase for all employees in 2018, 2.0 % in 2017, 2.8 % in 2016, 2.2 % in 2014, 3.4 % in 2013, etc. In addition, there are individually agreed salary increases depending performance. [1] https://www.igmetall.de/ueber-uns/geschichte/die-tariferfolge-der-ig-metall https://www.igmetall.de/ueber-uns/geschichte/die-tariferfolg...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
benhurmarcel 5y ago
That's funny because a lot of experienced engineers move to Germany from France, Spain, Italy, the UK, etc to get better salaries. Engineering salaries in Germany are high compared to most of western Europe.
- GrigoriyMikh 5y ago
  Is that true even if sum up higher taxes and cost of living in Germany? At least in Eastern Europe(specifically Russia, Belarus and Ukraine), average salary for mediocre software engineer is about 3k$ per month after taxes which is already comparable with German average SE salary. But cost of living in EE is a lot cheaper, apartments in Moscow are 3 times cheaper than in major German cities. Food, on average 2 times cheaper and transportation(taxes, public transport and fuel) sometimes up to 10 times cheaper than in Germany.
  - wuschel 5y ago
    This. Quality and extended costs of life are definitely vague but important aspects when considering a move to Germany. There is no perfect lunch let alone free lunch.
  - benhurmarcel 5y ago
    Cost of living in Germany isn’t significantly higher than other western European countries. And for engineers, after-tax income is easily 50% higher in Germany compared to the countries I mentioned.
- bluGill 5y ago
  They are low compared to the world. However moving is NOT easy for personal reason. If you are going to move from the countries you listed Germany is going to be easier just because it isn't as hard to get back to visit family.
Hypocritelefty 5y ago
Why would any Indian go to Germany? Why don't you back up your point with some numbers otherwise this is nothing but prejudice.

bluGill 5y ago

As I said, the union has enough benefits that the value of higher salary positions isn't worth it to many. In the union you are not allowed to work more than 36 hours a week (I might have the numbers off a bit?) and they check to ensure that. Non-union can work longer hours, in practice they don't, but they are allowed to. There are a number of other things like that, the one lead engineer I work with in Germany doesn't think they are worth it, but the majority do. The above is about great engineers who are holding themselves back. I have no doubt that those who are willing to not be in the union are also willing to leave the country leading to some brain drain, but many are also holding themselves back as well.

GrigoriyMikh 5y ago
What's "the union"? I never heard about it. Not a single engineer that i know personally is in this union(or at least they are hiding that). And literally all of them planning to leave Germany once the good opportunity arrives. Also, i know personally almost 20 engineers who left the country only for better pay and that's during pandemic only.
- benjaminsuch 5y ago
  Labor Union. But if a Lead Engineer needs a Labor Union for his benefits, then he does something clearly wrong.
- bluGill 5y ago
  Depends on the industry, different industries get different unions. I believe the ones I work with are in the steel workers union, but since I don't live in Germany I'm sure. I just know they find their union worth it.
- apflkx 5y ago
  Many German companies (BMW, Siemens, Bosch, BASF, ...) historically cooperate with unions like "IG Metall". Unions win benefits for their members, but companies usually pass these benefits on to all employees. These benefits typically include: 35-hour work week, regular and performance-independent salary increases for all employees, at least 6 weeks of vacation per year, parental leave beyond the legal minimum, training and job placement if your current job is eliminated, etc. If you are a developer working for one of these companies, the union contracts will always affect you, even if you are not a union member. It is hard to tell if you are in a better or worse situation as a developer when you work in such a company. Many employees in such companies would like to have a 40-hour week, because that would result in higher pay. Unions, however, push to allow 40-hour weeks only to a small percentage of the workforce on the grounds that if the workload is higher, it should be compensated by new hires instead of overtime for existing employees, since more employees also means more union members and thus more power for unions.
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    > regular and performance-independent salary increases for all employees What country are you talking about?
    - apflkx 5y ago
      Germany, if the collective agreement for the metal and electrical industry applies to you [1]: 4.3 % pay increase for all employees in 2018, 2.0 % in 2017, 2.8 % in 2016, 2.2 % in 2014, 3.4 % in 2013, etc. In addition, there are individually agreed salary increases depending performance. [1] https://www.igmetall.de/ueber-uns/geschichte/die-tariferfolge-der-ig-metall https://www.igmetall.de/ueber-uns/geschichte/die-tariferfolg...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

benhurmarcel 5y ago

That's funny because a lot of experienced engineers move to Germany from France, Spain, Italy, the UK, etc to get better salaries. Engineering salaries in Germany are high compared to most of western Europe.

GrigoriyMikh 5y ago
Is that true even if sum up higher taxes and cost of living in Germany? At least in Eastern Europe(specifically Russia, Belarus and Ukraine), average salary for mediocre software engineer is about 3k$ per month after taxes which is already comparable with German average SE salary. But cost of living in EE is a lot cheaper, apartments in Moscow are 3 times cheaper than in major German cities. Food, on average 2 times cheaper and transportation(taxes, public transport and fuel) sometimes up to 10 times cheaper than in Germany.
- wuschel 5y ago
  This. Quality and extended costs of life are definitely vague but important aspects when considering a move to Germany. There is no perfect lunch let alone free lunch.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  Cost of living in Germany isn’t significantly higher than other western European countries. And for engineers, after-tax income is easily 50% higher in Germany compared to the countries I mentioned.
bluGill 5y ago
They are low compared to the world. However moving is NOT easy for personal reason. If you are going to move from the countries you listed Germany is going to be easier just because it isn't as hard to get back to visit family.

Hypocritelefty 5y ago

Why would any Indian go to Germany? Why don't you back up your point with some numbers otherwise this is nothing but prejudice.