5 ms·

I don't know of a single person in my Master's degree class in Computer Science in one of Germany's top tech universities who went to the US. And I have most of

I don't know of a single person in my Master's degree class in Computer Science in one of Germany's top tech universities who went to the US. And I have most of them as contacts on LinkedIn. I'm not buying your premise.

ahartmetz 5y ago
The thing about not coming back is probably true (30% the salary?!), but yeah, not many leave in the first place.
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  Adding to that, is there any general reason for a German, besides money, to go to the US? So if the ones that go mostly do it for the money, they'll most likely stay gone.
  - est31 5y ago
    I know people who came back after having worked a few years in the USA. Seems like a smart move to me, considering how large bay area home prices are compared to home prices in Germany. From my limited point of view, Germany is a way better and way less expensive place to raise your child than the USA. There is way more social peace. You don't have massive gun violence. Etc. I know people who emigrated to the USA decades ago, and now send their children to German colleges because those are practically tuition free for EU citizens (you need to pay rent tho). If you want to move back more early on, you can use your savings from your time in the USA to get the bulk cost of buying a house in one of the regions with good tech jobs like Munich out of the way. Then you can live a great life in Germany even with the limited German tech salaries. Note that I'm not saying that you shouldn't go to the the USA in the first place. In fact, I'm still strongly considering it myself. But the less healthy, young, single, and childless you are, the more advantages does Germany have for you.
  - volta83 5y ago
    Personal development. Working with people that are much smarter than you generally makes you better at your work. So from that point of view, going to the places where the concentration of super smart people is the "highest" makes sense.
    - SiempreViernes 5y ago
      There are plenty of smart people and high tech companies in Europe though, so there's no reason to take the job insecurity and parental leave hit for that alone. You'd have to be in a niche where there's only a few teams world wide that are any good, and the US one is the one that's hiring.
      - volta83 5y ago
        > There are plenty of smart people and high tech companies in Europe though, Its like comparing a top German tech university with MIT, Stanford, or Berkeley. Sure the German tech universities are really good, but from the set of people I know with offers from MIT or Stanford, none of them rejected them, because they were a huge boon for their careers. The impact is pretty much the same with tech in SV. > so there's no reason to take the job insecurity and parental leave hit for that alone. Parental leave is usually _orders of magnitude better_ in SV than Germany. All SV employers I know offer you 4-6 months of fully-paid parental leave, and allow you to take more months, but unpaid. If your salary is 600k$, your paid parental leave is ~300k$. In Germany you get max 1800 EUR netto / month of Elterngeld. If you take it for 14 months, that's 25000 EUR. Somebody making 5000 EUR netto/month (e.g. 120k$ brutto), and deciding to stay at home, looses 3200 EUR netto per month. Most of the people I know making slightly over 100k$ in Germany with kids went back to work as soon as possible (women in less than 3 months... which is nuts), because they have bills to foot (mortage, etc.).
- nicbou 5y ago
  Money isn't everything to many. Life in Germany is good enough, and there's no guarantee that it would be betted in the US. Sure, more money is nice, but the pay in Germany is still decent, and the perks are considerable: 22% fewer work hours, for instance.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    It's not, and that's perfectly fine from a societal standpoint, but people who are worried about working 22% fewer hours and are fine getting a "decent" salary are not the engineers you want to hire when trying to bootstrap a new enterprise. They can run your company steady-state, but they are not going to build anything internationally competitive.
    - helloguillecl 5y ago
      This is simply not true, as German tech companies have built more than just a few success examples. Why do you think you need people who don't care about having a life outside the workplace to build something competitive?
      - bpodgursky 5y ago
        Germany has 80 million people. The US has 330 million. Can you really tell me with a straight face that Germany has 25% of the success examples that the US tech industry has?
        wasmitnetzen 5y ago
        Not in IT, but Germany has quite a few market leaders in "old tech": Cars, logistics (DHL, Schenker), retail (Aldi, Lidl), and a whole lot of B2B niche products. IT isn't a fair comparison, no country in the world can compete with FAANG right now, that's hardly Germany's fault. And still, there's SAP and Deutsche Telekom. Telekom has 50% of Google's revenue. Sure, the market cap is another story, but still.
kleiba 5y ago
Sorry, but just because they were in your Master's degree class does not necessarily make them top talent.
Roritharr 5y ago
I know several that went to FANGs from TU Darmstadt and are in the situation as described by parent. They even feel socially isolated from Germany as their salaries and wealth are incomprehensible to their former friends and so are met with envy. Personally I regret not leaving Germany earlier, it's much harder once you have kids.
GrigoriyMikh 5y ago
I know almost 20 engineers personally, who moved out from Germany, only because of low pay. But all of them were expats in a first place. Not all moved to US, some to Switzerland and some back to home country(for higher managerial positions).
volta83 5y ago
Anecdotal evidence: I did my BSc, MSc, and PhD in Germany. None of my PhD colleagues (from my and other top3 tech universities) is still in Germany, they are all in the US, except one which is now a Prof in the UK. Most of my BSc and MSc colleagues are still in Germany, some spreaded out through europe, and few to the US. Its pretty hard to some of us actually have work-related conversations with old friends still in Germany. They always ask about the salaries in the US, and guess something "absurd" like "you are probably making more than 200k$, 250k$?", to which the only thing you can actually say is "yes" kind of in shame, because making >500k$/year is "absurd"/"beyond imagination" by German standards. We have all worked in Germany in industry before moving to the US (both internships, but also between MSc. and PhD, or briefly after the PhD), and there is just no comparison about the quality-level of the work and intellectual-growth in the US and Germany. In my German employer, our 15 ppl team was 2 PhDs, and many MSc, all from different skill levels, doing a good job, etc. In my US employer, our 50 ppl team has > 40 PhDs, couple of Stanford / MIT / Berkley / .. ex-Professors, pretty much all of them infinitely smarter than me, all giving me feedback, punching holes through my work, discovering my flaws, and teaching them to me, etc. The difference in the amount of stuff you learn per day of work, the quality standards, etc. between both employers is abysmal.

ahartmetz 5y ago

The thing about not coming back is probably true (30% the salary?!), but yeah, not many leave in the first place.

SiempreViernes 5y ago
Adding to that, is there any general reason for a German, besides money, to go to the US? So if the ones that go mostly do it for the money, they'll most likely stay gone.
- est31 5y ago
  I know people who came back after having worked a few years in the USA. Seems like a smart move to me, considering how large bay area home prices are compared to home prices in Germany. From my limited point of view, Germany is a way better and way less expensive place to raise your child than the USA. There is way more social peace. You don't have massive gun violence. Etc. I know people who emigrated to the USA decades ago, and now send their children to German colleges because those are practically tuition free for EU citizens (you need to pay rent tho). If you want to move back more early on, you can use your savings from your time in the USA to get the bulk cost of buying a house in one of the regions with good tech jobs like Munich out of the way. Then you can live a great life in Germany even with the limited German tech salaries. Note that I'm not saying that you shouldn't go to the the USA in the first place. In fact, I'm still strongly considering it myself. But the less healthy, young, single, and childless you are, the more advantages does Germany have for you.
- volta83 5y ago
  Personal development. Working with people that are much smarter than you generally makes you better at your work. So from that point of view, going to the places where the concentration of super smart people is the "highest" makes sense.
  - SiempreViernes 5y ago
    There are plenty of smart people and high tech companies in Europe though, so there's no reason to take the job insecurity and parental leave hit for that alone. You'd have to be in a niche where there's only a few teams world wide that are any good, and the US one is the one that's hiring.
    - volta83 5y ago
      > There are plenty of smart people and high tech companies in Europe though, Its like comparing a top German tech university with MIT, Stanford, or Berkeley. Sure the German tech universities are really good, but from the set of people I know with offers from MIT or Stanford, none of them rejected them, because they were a huge boon for their careers. The impact is pretty much the same with tech in SV. > so there's no reason to take the job insecurity and parental leave hit for that alone. Parental leave is usually _orders of magnitude better_ in SV than Germany. All SV employers I know offer you 4-6 months of fully-paid parental leave, and allow you to take more months, but unpaid. If your salary is 600k$, your paid parental leave is ~300k$. In Germany you get max 1800 EUR netto / month of Elterngeld. If you take it for 14 months, that's 25000 EUR. Somebody making 5000 EUR netto/month (e.g. 120k$ brutto), and deciding to stay at home, looses 3200 EUR netto per month. Most of the people I know making slightly over 100k$ in Germany with kids went back to work as soon as possible (women in less than 3 months... which is nuts), because they have bills to foot (mortage, etc.).
nicbou 5y ago
Money isn't everything to many. Life in Germany is good enough, and there's no guarantee that it would be betted in the US. Sure, more money is nice, but the pay in Germany is still decent, and the perks are considerable: 22% fewer work hours, for instance.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  It's not, and that's perfectly fine from a societal standpoint, but people who are worried about working 22% fewer hours and are fine getting a "decent" salary are not the engineers you want to hire when trying to bootstrap a new enterprise. They can run your company steady-state, but they are not going to build anything internationally competitive.
  - helloguillecl 5y ago
    This is simply not true, as German tech companies have built more than just a few success examples. Why do you think you need people who don't care about having a life outside the workplace to build something competitive?
    - bpodgursky 5y ago
      Germany has 80 million people. The US has 330 million. Can you really tell me with a straight face that Germany has 25% of the success examples that the US tech industry has?
      - wasmitnetzen 5y ago
        Not in IT, but Germany has quite a few market leaders in "old tech": Cars, logistics (DHL, Schenker), retail (Aldi, Lidl), and a whole lot of B2B niche products. IT isn't a fair comparison, no country in the world can compete with FAANG right now, that's hardly Germany's fault. And still, there's SAP and Deutsche Telekom. Telekom has 50% of Google's revenue. Sure, the market cap is another story, but still.

kleiba 5y ago

Sorry, but just because they were in your Master's degree class does not necessarily make them top talent.

Roritharr 5y ago

I know several that went to FANGs from TU Darmstadt and are in the situation as described by parent. They even feel socially isolated from Germany as their salaries and wealth are incomprehensible to their former friends and so are met with envy. Personally I regret not leaving Germany earlier, it's much harder once you have kids.

GrigoriyMikh 5y ago

I know almost 20 engineers personally, who moved out from Germany, only because of low pay. But all of them were expats in a first place. Not all moved to US, some to Switzerland and some back to home country(for higher managerial positions).

volta83 5y ago

Anecdotal evidence: I did my BSc, MSc, and PhD in Germany. None of my PhD colleagues (from my and other top3 tech universities) is still in Germany, they are all in the US, except one which is now a Prof in the UK. Most of my BSc and MSc colleagues are still in Germany, some spreaded out through europe, and few to the US. Its pretty hard to some of us actually have work-related conversations with old friends still in Germany. They always ask about the salaries in the US, and guess something "absurd" like "you are probably making more than 200k$, 250k$?", to which the only thing you can actually say is "yes" kind of in shame, because making >500k$/year is "absurd"/"beyond imagination" by German standards. We have all worked in Germany in industry before moving to the US (both internships, but also between MSc. and PhD, or briefly after the PhD), and there is just no comparison about the quality-level of the work and intellectual-growth in the US and Germany. In my German employer, our 15 ppl team was 2 PhDs, and many MSc, all from different skill levels, doing a good job, etc. In my US employer, our 50 ppl team has > 40 PhDs, couple of Stanford / MIT / Berkley / .. ex-Professors, pretty much all of them infinitely smarter than me, all giving me feedback, punching holes through my work, discovering my flaws, and teaching them to me, etc. The difference in the amount of stuff you learn per day of work, the quality standards, etc. between both employers is abysmal.