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> US is loosing more and more of its standing when it comes to "spreading" democracy. You can't go and try to preach democratic values to, say, Belarus, and the

> US is loosing more and more of its standing when it comes to "spreading" democracy. You can't go and try to preach democratic values to, say, Belarus, and then do exactly the same in your own country. Is there any indication that stuff like this happens _more_ than in the past? Or have the world's standards just risen?

avs733 5y ago
Or access to information increased? Or I’ve gotten older and more sour on this type of stuff? Honestly I feel like the change has been, for me, more awareness and less attachement to the narrative forced down my throat. I also don’t believe it to be (as a native US citizen) a US thing. I see it in a huge swing in many countries towards authoritarianism in many ways and towards many goals. It isn’t so much a left or right thing (although I believe it to be more right leaning) but just a greater willingness to use power structures to control others.
lmilcin 5y ago
> Is there any indication that stuff like this happens _more_ than in the past? Or have the world's standards just risen? Oh, so it is fine to sin against democracy as long as you are not sinning more than in the past?
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  There's a nifty feature on HN called "scrolling up" that allows you to read the parents of the comments you reply to. It's good for workflows you might find useful like "understanding the discussion" and "not looking like an idiot". In this case, it'd reveal that the premise of my question is the parent comment's claim of a _decline_ in the US's reputation as a "spreader of democracy". hth EDIT: Holy christ, you are the parent commenter. How is it even possible that you forgot what your previous comment in the thread was saying??
pedalpete 5y ago
It doesn't matter if it is happening more or less. The goal is to always be improving. Values is about what you believe in and strive for, and when you don't reach the standards you set for yourself, you figure out why, and adjust to be inline with your beliefs and goals.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  > It doesn't matter if it is happening more or less. The goal is to always be improving. I'm not sure what you think "mattering" means, but I was responding to a comment that said "the US is loosing[sic] more and more of its standing". I'm not sure why you're so convinced that the relative decline of the US's reputation shouldn't be talked about, but it's pretty bizarre behavior to insert yourself into a conversation about it and assert so.
- ByteJockey 5y ago
  > It doesn't matter if it is happening more or less. The goal is to always be improving. These two statements seem to be at odds. In order to know if we're improving, we have to know if the behavior is becoming more frequent or less.
  - pedalpete 5y ago
    That's a good point. I meant that we don't want to only look at the past and compare if we are better or worse, but rather focus on always improving.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
Neither. The concept of "spreading democracy" has always been propaganda, and the US has not faced harsher standards.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  I mean ok, but the parent commenter's claim is that the US is _losing_ standing as a spreader of democracy. This is the premise of my question, and I'm not really interested in a random third-party's view that the premise is wrong, especially when it's as trite a view as this one.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    You are asking if people think the propaganda has become less true. It's a nonsense question, as if people ever think the US is/was spreading democracy the propaganda has worked.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  The US brought democracy to Germany and Japan after WW2.
  - cartoonworld 5y ago
    Germany was a republic with a constitution and elected leaders after 1918. Kaiser Wilhelm II took power after Bismark, and abdicated at the end of the first war. Wilhelm died in 1941. Bismarck unified Germany in the latter 1800's as a constitutional federation with suffrage and elected legislatures, I don't know the fine details except it was some form of confederation and is considered a constitutional monarchy with elected legislature.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Germany had 12 years of dictatorship from 1933 to 1945.

avs733 5y ago

Or access to information increased? Or I’ve gotten older and more sour on this type of stuff? Honestly I feel like the change has been, for me, more awareness and less attachement to the narrative forced down my throat. I also don’t believe it to be (as a native US citizen) a US thing. I see it in a huge swing in many countries towards authoritarianism in many ways and towards many goals. It isn’t so much a left or right thing (although I believe it to be more right leaning) but just a greater willingness to use power structures to control others.

lmilcin 5y ago

> Is there any indication that stuff like this happens _more_ than in the past? Or have the world's standards just risen? Oh, so it is fine to sin against democracy as long as you are not sinning more than in the past?

wutbrodo 5y ago
There's a nifty feature on HN called "scrolling up" that allows you to read the parents of the comments you reply to. It's good for workflows you might find useful like "understanding the discussion" and "not looking like an idiot". In this case, it'd reveal that the premise of my question is the parent comment's claim of a _decline_ in the US's reputation as a "spreader of democracy". hth EDIT: Holy christ, you are the parent commenter. How is it even possible that you forgot what your previous comment in the thread was saying??

pedalpete 5y ago

It doesn't matter if it is happening more or less. The goal is to always be improving. Values is about what you believe in and strive for, and when you don't reach the standards you set for yourself, you figure out why, and adjust to be inline with your beliefs and goals.

wutbrodo 5y ago
> It doesn't matter if it is happening more or less. The goal is to always be improving. I'm not sure what you think "mattering" means, but I was responding to a comment that said "the US is loosing[sic] more and more of its standing". I'm not sure why you're so convinced that the relative decline of the US's reputation shouldn't be talked about, but it's pretty bizarre behavior to insert yourself into a conversation about it and assert so.
ByteJockey 5y ago
> It doesn't matter if it is happening more or less. The goal is to always be improving. These two statements seem to be at odds. In order to know if we're improving, we have to know if the behavior is becoming more frequent or less.
- pedalpete 5y ago
  That's a good point. I meant that we don't want to only look at the past and compare if we are better or worse, but rather focus on always improving.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

Neither. The concept of "spreading democracy" has always been propaganda, and the US has not faced harsher standards.

wutbrodo 5y ago
I mean ok, but the parent commenter's claim is that the US is _losing_ standing as a spreader of democracy. This is the premise of my question, and I'm not really interested in a random third-party's view that the premise is wrong, especially when it's as trite a view as this one.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  You are asking if people think the propaganda has become less true. It's a nonsense question, as if people ever think the US is/was spreading democracy the propaganda has worked.
WalterBright 5y ago
The US brought democracy to Germany and Japan after WW2.
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  Germany was a republic with a constitution and elected leaders after 1918. Kaiser Wilhelm II took power after Bismark, and abdicated at the end of the first war. Wilhelm died in 1941. Bismarck unified Germany in the latter 1800's as a constitutional federation with suffrage and elected legislatures, I don't know the fine details except it was some form of confederation and is considered a constitutional monarchy with elected legislature.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Germany had 12 years of dictatorship from 1933 to 1945.