5 ms·

You can’t fight racism and sexism by using “reparative” racism and sexism. Going after straight white men because of their identity is as abhorrent as any other

You can’t fight racism and sexism by using “reparative” racism and sexism. Going after straight white men because of their identity is as abhorrent as any other form of racism/sexism.

anamexis 5y ago
Wouldn't "reparative" here have been hiring a more diverse cohort, and paying them more?
- Wolfenstein98k 5y ago
  That would be a way to address the underlying complaint. But it wouldn't be "reparative". The perversion here is the assumption that the next minority you hire is a complete stand-in for the implicitly-assumed minority who missed out before, leading to the existing imbalance.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  There is no person more diverse than another one. You cannot discriminate that by skin color without being racist.
  - anamexis 5y ago
    There is a workforce more diverse than another one.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      Correct, I guess. Online racial supremacists are diverse and multinational. It is not a quality in itself. Optimizing this metric is futile and doesn't solve prejudice. On the contrary I believe.
tpoacher 5y ago
mathematically speaking, sexism is an idempotent operation.
seph-reed 5y ago
Personally, I'm onboard with being equal-and-opposite to whatever race/gender caste systems are being used. But if there's not a correct counter-balance, all you end up with is an inverted race/gender caste system. It's like fighting fire with flood rains, and not recognizing the difference between a forest-fire and camp-fire.
- Grakel 5y ago
  Yep. There's been a recent surge of changing the term "people of color" to "the global majority." I hope the global minority is going to have some rights left when this is over.
Spivak 5y ago
You’re confusing fixing the underlying cause with fixing the resultant effects. Your statement is about the former while HR is trying to do the latter. You can’t fix sexism with just a hiring policy but you can absolutely fix the effect of your company having no diversity with one.
- travisgriggs 5y ago
  You can if all of the reasons for whatever aspect of diversity is out of whack is under your control. But often the reasons for lack of diversity are not isolated to a single knob that the company itself is privy to dial to an ideal output.
- variantloki 5y ago
  I agree with what you wrote. I’ve heard people argue that such action provides a spark for further change. Like brings a new perspective to a group that cascades into more positive effects. It comes to mind the idea of “black children needing black superhero role models” or similarly for girls or other groups. I wonder to what extent this merely reinforces a racist ideology. Why can’t the role model be of any colour? How deep is it, truly, that the tribal behaviour based on group similarities, are ingrained in humans. Interestingly, amongst the well educated, or the wealthy, a different selection criteria is established.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    > Why can’t the role model be of any colour? Because that's just not how it works. You're assuming that the important thing is the role model's race, gender, sexuality. It's about having a character that is like you. How they look is just one small part of it. If you have a movie script where the main character is a white suburbanite man and once it's fully written make his skin color black it doesn't suddenly become good representation.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      I don't think that is a requirement for a role model and there is empirical evidence to the contrary. So I don't buy "this is not how it works".
travisgriggs 5y ago
This is the realization I had the other day. It's an abstraction of the "their are no winners in war" paradox. Racism does bad things. So then we try and fix the negative effects of racism. We practice a new form of "good racism." But it's still racism. And all it does is create more racism, despite our good intentions to roll back the negative effects of racism. We do the same with sexism. And agism. And any other form of differentiationism. And those that benefit not from one state or the other, but rather the flux of transitioning from one state to the other, flock to, and encourage the correctionism.
- tolbish 5y ago
  I'm trying to understand how you can just come to that realization when that point get repeated ad nauseam all the time on HN.
  - stickyricky 5y ago
    People aren't convinced by comments on message-boards. They have to come to the conclusion on their own.
iammisc 5y ago
Careful, according to the activists on my street in Portland you're literally a Nazi. We must eradicate this misuse of terms to silence people. You are right. We cannot fight racism and sexism with more racism and sexism.
swiley 5y ago
It's also creating some nasty backlash.
ktm5j 5y ago
Your argument doesn't consider the fact that straight white men have received benefits from racism and sexism their entire lives. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but it's just not that simple. They may not have gotten that job in the first place in a world with true equality. As a trans woman I think I have a unique perspective here, having literally seen both sides of this issue. I would have agreed with you at one point in my life, but I see things differently now.
- ryathal 5y ago
  It doesn't matter that someone had X for a time. You don't get justice by taking two eyes for an eye just because someone had three once.
  - ktm5j 5y ago
    I never said that it was okay for them to do this.. just that the person I replied to was rather small minded about their view of this issue. You too. It kind of bothers me to see straight cis white men get all worked up about things like this. You think this is unfair? You have absolutely no concept of what it's like to be a marginalized minority. They've had so much handed to them their whole lives, yet the second they have to deal with the kind of thing that minorities have to deal with they make a big fuss. The world is unfair, deal with. We all have to every damn day and no one listens to us when we cry about it.
    - matchbok 5y ago
      Applying the general benefits of a whole group of people to individuals applying to jobs is wrong. And doesn't work. Every person has a unique experience. Also, grouping "cis" in with all that is nonsense. Esp trans women, who seem to think they don't have all the benefits of being male. (Because biology is, in fact, real)

You can’t fight racism and sexism by using “reparative” racism and sexism. Going after straight white men because of their identity is as abhorrent as any other form of racism/sexism.

anamexis 5y ago

Wouldn't "reparative" here have been hiring a more diverse cohort, and paying them more?

Wolfenstein98k 5y ago
That would be a way to address the underlying complaint. But it wouldn't be "reparative". The perversion here is the assumption that the next minority you hire is a complete stand-in for the implicitly-assumed minority who missed out before, leading to the existing imbalance.
raxxorrax 5y ago
There is no person more diverse than another one. You cannot discriminate that by skin color without being racist.
- anamexis 5y ago
  There is a workforce more diverse than another one.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Correct, I guess. Online racial supremacists are diverse and multinational. It is not a quality in itself. Optimizing this metric is futile and doesn't solve prejudice. On the contrary I believe.

tpoacher 5y ago

mathematically speaking, sexism is an idempotent operation.

seph-reed 5y ago

Personally, I'm onboard with being equal-and-opposite to whatever race/gender caste systems are being used. But if there's not a correct counter-balance, all you end up with is an inverted race/gender caste system. It's like fighting fire with flood rains, and not recognizing the difference between a forest-fire and camp-fire.

Grakel 5y ago
Yep. There's been a recent surge of changing the term "people of color" to "the global majority." I hope the global minority is going to have some rights left when this is over.

Spivak 5y ago

You’re confusing fixing the underlying cause with fixing the resultant effects. Your statement is about the former while HR is trying to do the latter. You can’t fix sexism with just a hiring policy but you can absolutely fix the effect of your company having no diversity with one.

travisgriggs 5y ago
You can if all of the reasons for whatever aspect of diversity is out of whack is under your control. But often the reasons for lack of diversity are not isolated to a single knob that the company itself is privy to dial to an ideal output.
variantloki 5y ago
I agree with what you wrote. I’ve heard people argue that such action provides a spark for further change. Like brings a new perspective to a group that cascades into more positive effects. It comes to mind the idea of “black children needing black superhero role models” or similarly for girls or other groups. I wonder to what extent this merely reinforces a racist ideology. Why can’t the role model be of any colour? How deep is it, truly, that the tribal behaviour based on group similarities, are ingrained in humans. Interestingly, amongst the well educated, or the wealthy, a different selection criteria is established.
- Spivak 5y ago
  > Why can’t the role model be of any colour? Because that's just not how it works. You're assuming that the important thing is the role model's race, gender, sexuality. It's about having a character that is like you. How they look is just one small part of it. If you have a movie script where the main character is a white suburbanite man and once it's fully written make his skin color black it doesn't suddenly become good representation.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    I don't think that is a requirement for a role model and there is empirical evidence to the contrary. So I don't buy "this is not how it works".

travisgriggs 5y ago

This is the realization I had the other day. It's an abstraction of the "their are no winners in war" paradox. Racism does bad things. So then we try and fix the negative effects of racism. We practice a new form of "good racism." But it's still racism. And all it does is create more racism, despite our good intentions to roll back the negative effects of racism. We do the same with sexism. And agism. And any other form of differentiationism. And those that benefit not from one state or the other, but rather the flux of transitioning from one state to the other, flock to, and encourage the correctionism.

tolbish 5y ago
I'm trying to understand how you can just come to that realization when that point get repeated ad nauseam all the time on HN.
- stickyricky 5y ago
  People aren't convinced by comments on message-boards. They have to come to the conclusion on their own.

iammisc 5y ago

Careful, according to the activists on my street in Portland you're literally a Nazi. We must eradicate this misuse of terms to silence people. You are right. We cannot fight racism and sexism with more racism and sexism.

swiley 5y ago

It's also creating some nasty backlash.

ktm5j 5y ago

Your argument doesn't consider the fact that straight white men have received benefits from racism and sexism their entire lives. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but it's just not that simple. They may not have gotten that job in the first place in a world with true equality. As a trans woman I think I have a unique perspective here, having literally seen both sides of this issue. I would have agreed with you at one point in my life, but I see things differently now.

ryathal 5y ago
It doesn't matter that someone had X for a time. You don't get justice by taking two eyes for an eye just because someone had three once.
- ktm5j 5y ago
  I never said that it was okay for them to do this.. just that the person I replied to was rather small minded about their view of this issue. You too. It kind of bothers me to see straight cis white men get all worked up about things like this. You think this is unfair? You have absolutely no concept of what it's like to be a marginalized minority. They've had so much handed to them their whole lives, yet the second they have to deal with the kind of thing that minorities have to deal with they make a big fuss. The world is unfair, deal with. We all have to every damn day and no one listens to us when we cry about it.
  - matchbok 5y ago
    Applying the general benefits of a whole group of people to individuals applying to jobs is wrong. And doesn't work. Every person has a unique experience. Also, grouping "cis" in with all that is nonsense. Esp trans women, who seem to think they don't have all the benefits of being male. (Because biology is, in fact, real)