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Signal has been adding lots of silly social media like features lately, not surprising that they are messing up the core value prop. I’m shopping for a new encr
by jerkstate 5y ago
Signal has been adding lots of silly social media like features lately, not surprising that they are messing up the core value prop. I’m shopping for a new encrypted messenger. They used to say every program expands in scope until it can read email, now every app expands until you can add Snapchat filters to your selfies.
- jMyles 5y agoEvery time something like this comes up, I say something like, "Who wants to switch to Matrix (ie, Element, and before that, Riot Chat)?" But then, I myself don't end up doing it, largely because of the network effect on Signal. I think we need to just remember to always keep 3-5 of them open so we can have some horizontal evolution.
- beermonster 5y agoI’ve tried Element. I think Signal is probably easier to setup and use for most non-technical people on comparison.
- TheChaplain 5y agoIt's necessary if you want to attract the mainstream users, who could not care less for e2e security but values stickers, filters and stories above all else.
- hellcow 5y agoMatrix is a solid replacement. Element isn't as easy to use but it's coming along. Quality-of-life features normal users expect like stickers, gifs, etc. are woefully lacking, but the important stuff (y'know, actual messaging) is solid. The most important thing to me is if Element screws up like Signal and starts pushing a shitcoin, I can swap clients without affecting my network.
- dindresto 5y agoAlso, Matrix supports other client implementations than Element, like https://fluffychat.im/ https://fluffychat.im/
- markzzerella 5y agoFluffychat is my go-to for getting normies on matrix.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoI can’t even possibly pitch the name alone to anyone but few preteens. Even teenagers won’t be interested.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoMatrix is anything but a Signal replacement. It’s so convoluted and really questionable UX for personal communication. I think Signal (in its current form and direction) is a gone case but so is Matrix. Matrix is anyway chasing Slack not WhatsApp. I think that’s a smart move.
- hellcow 5y agoMatrix is a protocol, Element is a Slack-like app on Matrix. It sounds like you have issues with Element as a replacement for Signal, which I totally get, but I think it's worth distinguishing Element from Matrix. Element being the only full-featured Matrix app hopefully won't always be the case and it's Matrix's express goal to change that. Element is a single reference implementation -- if it's successful it could spawn many others supporting different UIs and use-cases, which we're already seeing with Fluffychat sporting a Signal-like chat interface. I'm pushing my family and friends to use Matrix because that's the direction I want the world to go (open protocol with many different clients and servers communicating), not because we're already there today.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoI should have been clear about that. Yes, I am aware that Matrix and Vector>Riot>Element are different. In fact Matrix as a protocol even less of a Signal replacement. People get perturbed by tiny amount of sign up friction and imagine self hosting. But then if you assume, and that's what I did assume, that for the sake of considering Matrix/Element as a replacement of Signal we stick to matrix.org server. That essentially makes Matrix as Signal replacement. Also, when people usually talk about Matrix being adopted by masses they are talking about Matrix on matrix.org (or that's my understanding which may be incorrect as well).
- tffgg 5y ago> Also, when people usually talk about Matrix being adopted by masses they are talking about Matrix on matrix.org (or that's my understanding which may be incorrect as well). No idea how you got that understanding. With respect to adoption the server does not matter at all (though many consider it advantageous if it is not matrix.org)
- pxeboot 5y agoWhile I hate these features as much as everybody else on HN, they are likely necessary if they ever want the app to go mainstream.
- Barrin92 5y agois Wire still around and does somebody know if it's good? I remember reading about it because it used Haskell but I never tried it out.
- antihero 5y agoThey can't even be bothered to do 2FA
- FabHK 5y agoI used it and found it excellent, fully featured (chat/voice/video), use phone or email as identifier, and supported on all devices (iOS, Android, Mac, Win, Linux). I don't understand why it didn't take off - seems like a modern version of Betamax/VHS to me.
- Rd6n6 5y agoIt’s not enough for signal to work for tech people. You have to be able to convince your family and friends to use it, it’s a network effects problem. They are adding features so that ordinary people can have private communications
- ikiris 5y agoordinary people don't give a flying f** about being able to send someone crypto currency via their messaging app.
- renewiltord 5y agoBut everyone wants to send money or money-equivalents. I use Venmo almost every other day.
- M2Ys4U 5y agoBut why roll that in to a chat app? Why not use your bank's app (or if you live in a country with a 19th century banking system like the USA, something like Venmo)?
- npteljes 5y agoI guess because your chat app is also your contacts management app, even if by accident.
- renewiltord 5y agoBecause I have performed out of band verification for contacts in my chat app.
- ViViDboarder 5y agoThough many of their competing apps support this feature. Facebook, Apple, WeChat, etc.
- GuB-42 5y agoIf that's the case, why did they remove SMS import? It used to be "just install that, you will be more secure and won't notice the difference". To "you will lose all your messages".
- hkt 5y agoDelta chat starts from reading email and theb works backwards: https://delta.chat/en/ https://delta.chat/en/
- maqp 5y agoCool, my contacts can keep using their gmail account and leak all communication metadata to Google without me having any say on that if I want to talk to them. Where can I sign up?
- JohnJamesRambo 5y agoI hate the new ability to add emoji responses to message chat bubbles. It has turned my conversations (especially group ones) into a Facebook like experience where everyone expects a cry face emoji or heart on everything they say. It gives me that same feeling of dread I used to get when I had a Facebook. I just want to send and receive text messages, not be engaged constantly to my phone.
- beermonster 5y agoWhich makes it like using Slack! I for one would rather they spent less time on these ‘features’.
- jchook 5y agoI use delta-chat (chat over imap) and it’s fantastic. Decentralized / federated e2e chat, running on the Internet’s most well-known, resilient, universally supported, self-hostable infrastructure: email.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jeroenhd 5y agoHow does delta deal with new chats, fallback and other standard email client stuff? Does it allow mixing encrypted and unencrypted messages? What happens if I use an alternative mail client, will I still be able to read email from people after the project dies and the clients stop working? I don't think people will appreciate it when I suddenly start using email as a standard communications method, but it's worth a shot. The client looks like a copy of Telegram (a good thing, in my opinion) and everyone already has email, so I'm willing to give it a shot I guess. I'm currently on the Matrix camp but it's not like that's a protocol many non techs use in the real world. I'm just wary of using email for this because of all of the previous failures to secure email, like PGP, S/MIME and variations thereof.
- FabHK 5y agoIt seems to use E2E encryption with some trust-on-first-use protocol called Autocrypt: https://delta.chat/en/help#encryption https://delta.chat/en/help#encryption
- jchook 5y ago> Does it allow mixing encrypted and unencrypted messages? What happens if I use an alternative mail client, will I still be able to read email from people after the project dies and the clients stop working? Yes. It uses the AutoCrypt standard, which exists independent of delta chat and has standalone software, + plugins for various email clients. I use a plugin for mutt so I can read my delta chat messages without the official client. You can issue new key pairs or turn off e2e as you like. > I don't think people will appreciate it when I suddenly start using email as a standard communications method, but it's worth a shot Fair, though perhaps technically simpler than getting others to download Yet Another Chat App™. > ...previous failures to secure email, like PGP, S/MIME and variations thereof. Did PGP and S/MIME fail? Services like ProtonMail use that tech to great effect. IMO it never hit the main stream because mainstream mail providers, etc want to read your email. There's some argument about usability but after using ProtonMail I don't buy those arguments.
- pantalaimon 5y agoWouldn't XMPP fit the bill?
- egberts1 5y agoMatrix, in non-federated mode, is by far the toughest messaging protocol to crack. Still dependent on proper UI engineering, like Signal failed to do.
- maqp 5y ago>by far the toughest messaging protocol to crack. Citation needed.
- godelski 5y agoPersonally I want to have secure communications with _all_ my friends and family, not just the paranoid tech nerds and people I can pressure into it. If this is what the masses want, give it to them. Encryption only works if people use it.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y agoThe only possible competitor (from a network effect perspective) is Matrix/Element. The UX is completely unpolished and at least 5 years behind Signal.
- dunefox 5y agoThreema seems great so far. Not many users though, sadly. Element (matrix.org) is good as well, but it's not polished and lacks users as well.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoThreema could get on Matrix and it would be awesome - or federate with it. Maybe Wire as well. Such excellent apps. However finding connections just by numbers is really a killer feature
- brobinson 5y agoThreema is worth a shot. Signal looks promising but isn't quite there yet.
- brobinson 5y agoCrap, I meant Session looks promising, not Signal.