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An interesting comment I read somewhere else was that the realpolitik case for discrediting treatments is that deploying the fast tracked vaccines is predicated

An interesting comment I read somewhere else was that the realpolitik case for discrediting treatments is that deploying the fast tracked vaccines is predicated on a legal emergency measure, for which the key requirement is there are no other viable treatments. I don't think there is serious controversy that the vaccine rollout is being used as leverage for imposing digital identity schemes and for establishing a variety of other ostensibly temporary powers that will not be rolled back, and so it is difficult to "trust the science" on this as the question has become 90%+ political. The consequences of a non-vaccine treatment being available would obviate the need for all the supporting systems for it, and derail a large co-ordinated effort that has been some years in the making. If you know anything about digital identity, you know what's been going on in that space right now and who/what is driving it. Conspiracy theories about mere pharma profits are distracting and don't think nearly big enough. If we really want to get everyone vaccinated for c19, we need to commit to no domestic vaccine passports. If we require the passports, the rollout is going to stall, you're going to mass-disenfranchise 20%+ of the middle class, and when we have to deal with a threat with a more serious fataility rate, there will be no institutional credibility left to respond to it. I'm not sure we should be haggling the details of chemistry and biology we aren't equipped to reason about when the real policy issue of passports is something we all have a stake in.

GavinMcG 5y ago
> I don't think there is serious controversy that the vaccine rollout is being used as leverage for imposing digital identity schemes and for establishing a variety of other ostensibly temporary powers that will not be rolled back Well you're flat wrong about the controversy bit, not even reaching the substance.
- motohagiography 5y ago
  It's not seriously controversial. If you work in identity or health, you know what technologies are being used, tech standards are being pushed out via public health networks, (SMARThealth, WHO's covax, etc.) and the massive changes in privacy regulations and information sharing in support of it are unprecedented. There are probably details that are still confidential in government, but that parties are leveraging the pandemic crisis to drive prior agendas is no secret. To deny that is unserious to the point of the very gaslighting that is creating the mistrust that is impacting the rollout. Data on ths subject is so politicized it's not even science anymore, it's scientistic policy activism. Arguing in the ivermectin/HCQ debate isn't going to impact policy or rollouts, but a tangible commitment to not exploiting the crisis to impose centralized identity governance would.
  - elefanten 5y ago
    I'm curious about what you talk about here, but I haven't heard anything about it. Any reading or further search terms beyond "SMARThealth" and "WHO covax"?
kevinventullo 5y ago
You seem to be implying that the reason so many people refuse to get vaccinated is because of some passport mechanism? That does not match my experience whatsoever; the people refusing a vaccine are all worried about side effects because they think it’s still “experimental”, and they don’t believe C19 poses a serious threat to them. I’ve never heard anyone mention anything about “digital identity schemes”.
Leparamour 5y ago
"Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill
javagram 5y ago
> legal emergency measure, for which the key requirement is there are no other viable treatments. Dexamethasone is an approved, cheap drug that is now also recommended by the FDA to treat covid-19. The theory there’s some conspiracy by government authorities to deny any approved drug is working on covid is clearly bogus. The FDA will be granting full, not emergency, approval to the Pfizer covid-19 vaccine in the coming months, and then this argument falls apart completely.[1] > I don't think there is serious controversy that the vaccine rollout is being used as leverage for imposing digital identity schemes and for establishing a variety of other ostensibly temporary powers that will not be rolled back Seems like nonsense, only two states have rolled out a vaccine “passport” (nothing like the actual passport schemes created in China and some foreign countries to reopen economies faster - the US version is just a digital document similar to how you can buy a railroad fare digitally) and the latest reporting is that Biden’s covid team is blocking incoming travel from Europe because they are opposed to vaccine passports, fearing that conspiracy theorists wouldn’t get a vaccine if they allow vaccinated travelers from Europe to prove their status and visit.[2] 1. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-v... 2. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/17/biden-covid-czar-obstacle-499908 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/17/biden-covid-czar-ob...
- motohagiography 5y ago
  Agreed that treatments and FDA approval will change the dynamics and medical need for c19 vaccination - when they happen. Dexamethasone is a corticocosteroid used as an immunosuppressor to clear airways, and not an alleged prophalactic treatment like Ivermectin, or an antiviral like HCQ, so that's a bit of a misdirection in comparing it to a treatment. It's like saying a defibrillator is an alternative heart disease treatment. And if there are treatments, passports are unnecessary. If you have followed the hesitancy reasoning and indeed, now movement judging by european protests, there is a consistent logic in their objections. They aren't standard hippie anti-vaxers. Whether the facts their logic uses as premises are true or falsifiable should be the focus of debate. Maybe there's an example of what level of c19 vaccination is strictly necessary to reopen economies that bears some scrutiny. If we keep enabling this constant apopleptic personal response to people with legitimate questions, we're going to lose a good 30%+ of people who don't respond to that kind of thing.
dekhn 5y ago
no, vaccine passports and digital identity aren't some big conspiracy theory and they are not the most important thing here.
- pbak 5y ago
  It's not a conspiracy if it's a stated public policy goal. A policy goal people are free to oppose in a democracy. Also, France ?

GavinMcG 5y ago

> I don't think there is serious controversy that the vaccine rollout is being used as leverage for imposing digital identity schemes and for establishing a variety of other ostensibly temporary powers that will not be rolled back Well you're flat wrong about the controversy bit, not even reaching the substance.

motohagiography 5y ago
It's not seriously controversial. If you work in identity or health, you know what technologies are being used, tech standards are being pushed out via public health networks, (SMARThealth, WHO's covax, etc.) and the massive changes in privacy regulations and information sharing in support of it are unprecedented. There are probably details that are still confidential in government, but that parties are leveraging the pandemic crisis to drive prior agendas is no secret. To deny that is unserious to the point of the very gaslighting that is creating the mistrust that is impacting the rollout. Data on ths subject is so politicized it's not even science anymore, it's scientistic policy activism. Arguing in the ivermectin/HCQ debate isn't going to impact policy or rollouts, but a tangible commitment to not exploiting the crisis to impose centralized identity governance would.
- elefanten 5y ago
  I'm curious about what you talk about here, but I haven't heard anything about it. Any reading or further search terms beyond "SMARThealth" and "WHO covax"?

kevinventullo 5y ago

You seem to be implying that the reason so many people refuse to get vaccinated is because of some passport mechanism? That does not match my experience whatsoever; the people refusing a vaccine are all worried about side effects because they think it’s still “experimental”, and they don’t believe C19 poses a serious threat to them. I’ve never heard anyone mention anything about “digital identity schemes”.

Leparamour 5y ago

"Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill

javagram 5y ago

> legal emergency measure, for which the key requirement is there are no other viable treatments. Dexamethasone is an approved, cheap drug that is now also recommended by the FDA to treat covid-19. The theory there’s some conspiracy by government authorities to deny any approved drug is working on covid is clearly bogus. The FDA will be granting full, not emergency, approval to the Pfizer covid-19 vaccine in the coming months, and then this argument falls apart completely.[1] > I don't think there is serious controversy that the vaccine rollout is being used as leverage for imposing digital identity schemes and for establishing a variety of other ostensibly temporary powers that will not be rolled back Seems like nonsense, only two states have rolled out a vaccine “passport” (nothing like the actual passport schemes created in China and some foreign countries to reopen economies faster - the US version is just a digital document similar to how you can buy a railroad fare digitally) and the latest reporting is that Biden’s covid team is blocking incoming travel from Europe because they are opposed to vaccine passports, fearing that conspiracy theorists wouldn’t get a vaccine if they allow vaccinated travelers from Europe to prove their status and visit.[2] 1. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-v... 2. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/17/biden-covid-czar-obstacle-499908 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/17/biden-covid-czar-ob...

motohagiography 5y ago
Agreed that treatments and FDA approval will change the dynamics and medical need for c19 vaccination - when they happen. Dexamethasone is a corticocosteroid used as an immunosuppressor to clear airways, and not an alleged prophalactic treatment like Ivermectin, or an antiviral like HCQ, so that's a bit of a misdirection in comparing it to a treatment. It's like saying a defibrillator is an alternative heart disease treatment. And if there are treatments, passports are unnecessary. If you have followed the hesitancy reasoning and indeed, now movement judging by european protests, there is a consistent logic in their objections. They aren't standard hippie anti-vaxers. Whether the facts their logic uses as premises are true or falsifiable should be the focus of debate. Maybe there's an example of what level of c19 vaccination is strictly necessary to reopen economies that bears some scrutiny. If we keep enabling this constant apopleptic personal response to people with legitimate questions, we're going to lose a good 30%+ of people who don't respond to that kind of thing.

dekhn 5y ago

no, vaccine passports and digital identity aren't some big conspiracy theory and they are not the most important thing here.

pbak 5y ago
It's not a conspiracy if it's a stated public policy goal. A policy goal people are free to oppose in a democracy. Also, France ?