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China has the opposite problem of the US: too much pressure on kids in school. Elementary school student have hours of homework every day. They have to learn co

China has the opposite problem of the US: too much pressure on kids in school. Elementary school student have hours of homework every day. They have to learn competitive maths and brain teasers in the tutoring schools too. Ironically, all their effort is in vain because all the tricks they learn in elementary school will be useless once they grasp high school math. The reason is simple: 50% of the middle school students won't pass the high school entrance exam and therefore have to go to vocational schools. Therefore, parents try every way possible to send their kids to elite middle schools so they can get the best training by the best teachers. There is also a secondary reason: Chinese high schools teach too little. For instance, high school maths do not cover calculus or linear algebra. In the meantime, only 50% or so high school students could get into university, and about 1% will get into the elite ones (search 985 universities, if you will). Naturally, problems in the National College Entrance Exam become tricky instead of deep. To be honest, they are not that tricky for mathematically inclined, but they are tricky enough for the general public. As a result, students go to tutoring schools to learn how to solve all kinds of hard problems, which again, are not hard any more if they learn more advanced concepts in college. Case in point, the most challenging problems are usually about analytical geometry, which US does not even teach because calculus and linear algebra render this 19th-century subject in a way obsolete.

sudosysgen 5y ago
In Québec we learn analytical geometry, it was actually tremendously helpful for me to excel at Calculus and Linear Algebra. I don't really think it's obsolete.
- nick__m 5y ago
  I have always wondered about the causes behind Québec's anormaly high PISA score in mathematic¹ and I think that your annecdote is probably highlighting of of them. 1- Table 1 and 2 of that document: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/math-performance-in-canada.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/math-per...
villasv 5y ago
> problems in the National College Entrance Exam become tricky instead of deep I assume that is because entrance exams are forced not to cover material outside the national high school subjects? Brazil’s hardest entrance exams (ITA and IME) are not bound in any way, so they go arbitrarily deep.
- hintymad 5y ago
  Yes, you're right. There's a national syllabus.
hintymad 5y ago
I also heard that the big after-school companies are discussing acquiring the US companies to survive. I really wish they can't. I love AOPS and RSM for their passion and their focus on fundamentals. I'd hate to see those companies turn into the soulless TAL, and teach students to memorize all kinds of patterns. Case in point, below is how TAL teaches elementary students to solve problems: Bob and Alice have 10 candies in total, and Bob has 2 more candies than Alice. How many candies do Bob and Alice each have? TAL's solution: this is called addition-subtraction problem. Add the two numbers and divide the sum by two, you get the bigger value for Bob. Subtract the difference from the total and then divide the result by two, and you get the smaller value for Alice. No mention of why. No mention of underlying intuition. No mention of any mathematical concepts. This is the most abhorrent teaching I've ever seen.
- esrh 5y ago
  However, if you were to memorize that solution, you can get really fast and accurate with relatively little actual math ability. I believe that method probably will have the greatest increase in test scores for the lowest common denominator. It really is quite abhorrent though.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    They're doing "educate well enough to do the paperwork of our businesses" better than the US.
  - derefr 5y ago
    Sounds like what China really needs, then, is a new approach to testing that manages to distinguish deep understanding of the underlying concepts from mechanistic/formulaic memorization. (Tangent: Has anyone yet tried to prompt GPT3 to generate "deep" word problems?)
  - idiotsecant 5y ago
    On the other hand if you're a US nationalist interested in your team succeeding against the Chinese team this is excellent news.
- 5y ago
ailun 5y ago
Where are you getting that 50% don’t pass the high school entrance exam? It’s not pass-fail. Which high school you get accepted to is based on your relative score, yes, but I haven’t heard anything like that 50% number going to vocational schools. Many students with lower scores end up going to private high schools. And I’ve never heard that high schools don’t teach calculus. The Chinese people I know who went to the US in later high school years and for college all found that the calculus classes were repetitive for them.
- bilbo0s 5y ago
  "Ailun" is right. I'm not sure where the original commenter is at in China where 50% are not going to high school. "Ailun" is also right about the private school thing. It's big in China. Finally, the idea that Chinese students are not learning calculus is patent nonsense.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Are the majority of public students, in the year the commenter specified, not accurate...?
  - nmfisher 5y ago
    This was 20 years ago, but my wife went to a public school in China and never learned calculus or linear algebra (and had only the faintest grasp of trigonometry).
- hintymad 5y ago
  The news is everywhere: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%88%9D%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98+%E5%88%86%E6%B5%81+%E6%AF%94%E4%BE%8B&oq=%E5%88%9D%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98+%E5%88%86%E6%B5%81+%E6%AF%94%E4%BE%8B&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i10i160.4579j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%88%9D%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98+..., for a long time. About calculus: https://www.gaokzx.com/c/201901/33164.html https://www.gaokzx.com/c/201901/33164.html Using the elite students from private schools who you know as a counter argument is really not that strong. Only 14% of the high school students are in private schools.
wonnage 5y ago
I'm sure it varies by region but there's already a form of degree specialization in high school - you can choose between focusing on liberal arts vs. science/engineering, and the liberal arts kids basically don't do any more math. College is even worse, you can go the whole four years without doing any math. Another difference between China and the US is the philosophy towards achievement. The US tends to bias resources towards underachievers, whereas China tends to just give up on them and focus on the overachievers. So again there's pressure to compete, because as soon as you fall behind you'll just be at a further disadvantage because nobody is trying to help you (unless you pay them). Honestly, the end result is kind of the same in both scenarios - the best and brightest (strongly correlated with wealth) go to elite universities, with the occasional feel-good story about rural kids making it in. They're pretty much set for life, while everyone else is stuck with a useless degree. Although many menial jobs won't hire you unless you have a degree, so it's good for that.
- JCharante 5y ago
  That bias might explain why there's no gifted schools / class-years in smaller school districts which add still large enough to have several schools.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zozbot234 5y ago
> Case in point, the most challenging problems are usually about analytical geometry, which US does not even teach because calculus and linear algebra render this 19th-century subject in a way obsolete. I looked up analytic geometry on Wiki and it looks like stuff that would definitely be taught in the U.S. Usually in the weirdly named "precalculus" course, though some of it would even be covered in previous courses.
yangff 5y ago
Calculus (Derivative and definite integral) is taught in some areas, It's elective 2-2. It does not involve Limit although number sequence is taught. My province, the NCEE had Calculus, linear algebra and inequality and it's choose two from three. Students tend to choose this (if it's availble in that area) because it's generally easy. And if you're like me, not good at computing numbers, you would choose inequality (mean inequality and Cauchy's Inequality in most cases) as you only need to do some transformation to the problem. Some students will do matrix if they cannot solve this quick enough. These were my experience, I do heard that recent education revolution was moving inequality to compulsory but removed Cauchy and so on. BTW, I don't understand how analytical geometry can be replaced by calculus and linear algebra.

sudosysgen 5y ago

In Québec we learn analytical geometry, it was actually tremendously helpful for me to excel at Calculus and Linear Algebra. I don't really think it's obsolete.

nick__m 5y ago
I have always wondered about the causes behind Québec's anormaly high PISA score in mathematic¹ and I think that your annecdote is probably highlighting of of them. 1- Table 1 and 2 of that document: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/math-performance-in-canada.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/math-per...

villasv 5y ago

> problems in the National College Entrance Exam become tricky instead of deep I assume that is because entrance exams are forced not to cover material outside the national high school subjects? Brazil’s hardest entrance exams (ITA and IME) are not bound in any way, so they go arbitrarily deep.

hintymad 5y ago
Yes, you're right. There's a national syllabus.

hintymad 5y ago

I also heard that the big after-school companies are discussing acquiring the US companies to survive. I really wish they can't. I love AOPS and RSM for their passion and their focus on fundamentals. I'd hate to see those companies turn into the soulless TAL, and teach students to memorize all kinds of patterns. Case in point, below is how TAL teaches elementary students to solve problems: Bob and Alice have 10 candies in total, and Bob has 2 more candies than Alice. How many candies do Bob and Alice each have? TAL's solution: this is called addition-subtraction problem. Add the two numbers and divide the sum by two, you get the bigger value for Bob. Subtract the difference from the total and then divide the result by two, and you get the smaller value for Alice. No mention of why. No mention of underlying intuition. No mention of any mathematical concepts. This is the most abhorrent teaching I've ever seen.

esrh 5y ago
However, if you were to memorize that solution, you can get really fast and accurate with relatively little actual math ability. I believe that method probably will have the greatest increase in test scores for the lowest common denominator. It really is quite abhorrent though.
- atatatat 5y ago
  They're doing "educate well enough to do the paperwork of our businesses" better than the US.
- derefr 5y ago
  Sounds like what China really needs, then, is a new approach to testing that manages to distinguish deep understanding of the underlying concepts from mechanistic/formulaic memorization. (Tangent: Has anyone yet tried to prompt GPT3 to generate "deep" word problems?)
- idiotsecant 5y ago
  On the other hand if you're a US nationalist interested in your team succeeding against the Chinese team this is excellent news.
5y ago

ailun 5y ago

Where are you getting that 50% don’t pass the high school entrance exam? It’s not pass-fail. Which high school you get accepted to is based on your relative score, yes, but I haven’t heard anything like that 50% number going to vocational schools. Many students with lower scores end up going to private high schools. And I’ve never heard that high schools don’t teach calculus. The Chinese people I know who went to the US in later high school years and for college all found that the calculus classes were repetitive for them.

bilbo0s 5y ago
"Ailun" is right. I'm not sure where the original commenter is at in China where 50% are not going to high school. "Ailun" is also right about the private school thing. It's big in China. Finally, the idea that Chinese students are not learning calculus is patent nonsense.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Are the majority of public students, in the year the commenter specified, not accurate...?
- nmfisher 5y ago
  This was 20 years ago, but my wife went to a public school in China and never learned calculus or linear algebra (and had only the faintest grasp of trigonometry).
hintymad 5y ago
The news is everywhere: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%88%9D%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98+%E5%88%86%E6%B5%81+%E6%AF%94%E4%BE%8B&oq=%E5%88%9D%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98+%E5%88%86%E6%B5%81+%E6%AF%94%E4%BE%8B&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i10i160.4579j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%88%9D%E5%8D%87%E9%AB%98+..., for a long time. About calculus: https://www.gaokzx.com/c/201901/33164.html https://www.gaokzx.com/c/201901/33164.html Using the elite students from private schools who you know as a counter argument is really not that strong. Only 14% of the high school students are in private schools.

wonnage 5y ago

I'm sure it varies by region but there's already a form of degree specialization in high school - you can choose between focusing on liberal arts vs. science/engineering, and the liberal arts kids basically don't do any more math. College is even worse, you can go the whole four years without doing any math. Another difference between China and the US is the philosophy towards achievement. The US tends to bias resources towards underachievers, whereas China tends to just give up on them and focus on the overachievers. So again there's pressure to compete, because as soon as you fall behind you'll just be at a further disadvantage because nobody is trying to help you (unless you pay them). Honestly, the end result is kind of the same in both scenarios - the best and brightest (strongly correlated with wealth) go to elite universities, with the occasional feel-good story about rural kids making it in. They're pretty much set for life, while everyone else is stuck with a useless degree. Although many menial jobs won't hire you unless you have a degree, so it's good for that.

JCharante 5y ago
That bias might explain why there's no gifted schools / class-years in smaller school districts which add still large enough to have several schools.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zozbot234 5y ago

> Case in point, the most challenging problems are usually about analytical geometry, which US does not even teach because calculus and linear algebra render this 19th-century subject in a way obsolete. I looked up analytic geometry on Wiki and it looks like stuff that would definitely be taught in the U.S. Usually in the weirdly named "precalculus" course, though some of it would even be covered in previous courses.

yangff 5y ago

Calculus (Derivative and definite integral) is taught in some areas, It's elective 2-2. It does not involve Limit although number sequence is taught. My province, the NCEE had Calculus, linear algebra and inequality and it's choose two from three. Students tend to choose this (if it's availble in that area) because it's generally easy. And if you're like me, not good at computing numbers, you would choose inequality (mean inequality and Cauchy's Inequality in most cases) as you only need to do some transformation to the problem. Some students will do matrix if they cannot solve this quick enough. These were my experience, I do heard that recent education revolution was moving inequality to compulsory but removed Cauchy and so on. BTW, I don't understand how analytical geometry can be replaced by calculus and linear algebra.