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Fitting that Diodorus should post this to hn. "So far, archaeologists have explored less than five percent of the ancient city." So still much more to come. T

• robbiep 5y ago
  Regarding your fascination about western history ‘beginning with the Greeks’ I would say the reason why is fairly obvious if you follow the history. Despite the locus of civilisation being in Mesopotamia and Egypt from 5-6000BCE to 500BCE by the time of this discovery (1-200BCE) Egypt had been conquered by Alexander and the (Mid East and Eastern Mediterranean) world divided between his generals. Additionally, whilst there is so much we don’t know of the thought and philiosophy of the area, what has survived to us today in terms of philosophy and law comes from the Greeks and Romans. So for the very early antiquity, you had mathematics and other vestiges of civilisation flowing from Egypt and Mesopotamia to other parts of the world, and then later the conquest of these areas by the Greeks first and then others. Anyway, your comments mark you as being well informed on the history so I am sure you don’t need a lesson from me, maybe the other point I’d make is that the breadth and detail of history makes generalisations such as ‘western history begins with the Greeks’ a more palatable launchpad for consumption than breaking down the nuance that inevitably unfolds on more profound study
  • jfoutz 5y ago
    If you like, feel free to educate observers of this exchange. All I really believe is that the pyramids are absurdly old.
    • tephra 5y ago
      There's this quote that I think is from Dan Carlin and I can't really remember how it goes but something like: "the birth of Cleopatra is closer to us in time than the building of the pyramids in Giza was to Cleopatra".
      • spullara 5y ago
        Reminds me that the latest dinosaur period is closer to us then the previous ones start. Human intelligence is not inevitable.
        • throwaway894345 5y ago
          I’ve also heard that humans are closer to tuna than tuna are to sharks. Not sure if it’s true, but it offends my sensibilities.
          • spullara 5y ago
            Sharks are extremely old, ~450m years. They are older than dinosaurs by ~140m years. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17453-timeline-the-evolution-of-life/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17453-timeline-the-ev...
            • wkearney99 5y ago
              And the Appalachian mountains are older than just about all animal life.
  • fsloth 5y ago
    Well, it's not all greek. For example the glyphs we use in this discussion AFAIK are based on egyptian hieroglyphs that were simplified by phoenicians into phoenician script from which greek and latin writing was then based on. Greeks did develop their own literacy, but apparently became illeterate again circa 1000 bc - and when they again picked up writing they use phoenician glyphs. Greek world did suck up most of knowledge that had accumulated and added very much to it, so they are a good reference point. Greek culture predates Rome's rise - and in some ways also lives longer since East-Roman emperors again used greek.
• NotChina 5y ago
  See the Amarna letters.
• NotChina 5y ago
  Also read the adventures of Wen Amun
• dalbasal 5y ago
  >> am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks." A good example of frames being "made up," in the sense that they can be constructed multiple ways. Another frame might be that Greeks were not "Western" at all. They were simply the western fringe of the greater "fertile crescent" culture. This frame would have made more sense to the Greeks themselves, who considered Egypt the source of much knowledge and urban culture. Writers like Plato credited scholars visiting egypt (Eg his uncle Solon) for bringing this knowledge back, especially during the Athenian golden age. The greek alphabet is also derived from the phoenician/canaanite/semitic alphabet. Archeology of older periods, like the Minoan Greek era, suggest Egyptian cultural influence started very early. "The West" (also near east, and far east) is actually a Greek concept, and the directions are relative to Greece. Rome is "The West" because its west of Greece. But, both Greek and Roman empires were a lot more active in the east than in the west.
  • jhgb 5y ago
    Ancient Greeks were Indo-Europeans, though, unlike any of the contemporary Ferticle Crescent cultures. In many ways that does make them very much western, e.g. their invention of vowel graphemes was one that other western peoples such as Latins/Romans who were also Indo-European and needed them as well could take advantage of.
    • bigbillheck 5y ago
      > Ancient Greeks were Indo-Europeans, though, So were the Hittites, and the ruling class of the Mittani.
      • jhgb 5y ago
        True, I sometimes forget how far north the Fertile Crescent reached. Nevertheless, when the Greeks rose to their height the Hittites had already been gone. The fact the Hittite language had to be deciphered in the 20th century attests to the cultural irrelevance of the Hittites for the western world. Compared to that we have whole schools of philosophy for Ancient Greece. We've never needed to rediscover Greece -- it's always been there in the background.
• masklinn 5y ago
  > The other story of Heraklion is its great multiculturalism; it exhibits both Greek and Egyptian influences. I am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks." And we often base Western civilization upon Greek thought, Roman law. At the same time, I am reminded of the story of Thales who supposedly learned his mathematical talents from Egypt. The interconnection between the two worlds seems obvious to me today, and I often wonder the reasons Westerners usually begin (and, for some, end) with the Greeks. Note that the Greece at the time was not restricted to modern geographical greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Greece#/media/File:Greek_Colonization_Archaic_Period.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Greece#/media/File:Gre... It was mostly a coastal entity (not dissimilar to Portugal during the age of discovery), but there were greek colonies throughout the mediterranean and black seas, with the exception of the phoenician south-west (the southern spain maghreb), as well as Phoenicia proper (the levant)
• ardit33 5y ago
  Ugh... these comments... First of all, Greece was not the start of the western civilization. Rome was. They borrowed a lot from Greece (which they eventually conquered) as Greece was more advanced initially. Greeks themselves had borrowed a lot form middle east and north african civilizations/cultures, and initially from the Minonians. The city you mention, Heraklion, was a Minionan city, which fell on a decline (a volcano/earthquake is thought to be the culprit) eventually was conquered by the Myceneans (greek percursors), who themselves were initially 'barbaric' indo-european tribes/civilization. Greeks were able to adopt, curate and evolve a lot of the knowlege of their neighbors and eventually ascend into being a prominent cultural place and create their own governing system, which was direct democracy for the main cities (Athens and Thebe), as Sparta had its own weird system, and Macedonia (if you consider it greek) was a traditional kingdom. The flow of knowledge is bidirectional, but some places borrowed more from others, and evolved knowledge, which itself was borrowed by other cultures: Early Civilization (Mesopotamia, Babylon) -> Egypt - Hittite - Minonian - > Mycenean -> (Bronze Collapse) -> Classical Greece -> Rome -> Western Civilization Of course I left out a lot of other cultures who contributed to today's 'western knowledge', from the Phoenicians, to Parthian / Persia, to later arabs, and indian and even east asian / chinese indirect contributions. But they were secondary to the flow I described. Even after the split of the Roman empire in two, Greece was on the Eastern part, so it is are more of a south-east / mediterranean culture/civilization, and not necessary western pre se, but it gave a lot to the western world.
  • kitd 5y ago
    First of all, Greece was not the start of the western civilization. Rome was. They borrowed a lot from Greece (which they eventually conquered) as Greece was more advanced initially Er, QED?
  • robbiep 5y ago
    I think that what you replied to is the comment ’ am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks.’ When I think everyone who is also commenting here recognises that that is just a talking point for where to pick up the threads of history.
  • 5y ago
• 1123581321 5y ago
  Typically historical books and lessons begin earlier than Greece. Greek is suggested over Egyptian for language learning due to the number of worthwhile works it accesses and its interplay with the next leg of language learning and research. Perhaps more immediately move on to Rome than should but that doesn’t condemn the starting point.
• opportune 5y ago
  The problem here is that Egyptian culture/connection to the rest of the world changed in massive amounts over time. If you looked at really ancient Egypt you would not find much that could be extrapolated to the “Western civilization” compared to the Greeks. The period of time where Egypt produced many scholars who we still know by name, and their works and how influential they are, was in the Hellenistic period during which they essentially were culturally Greek. It was a result of conquest and increasing Greek economic/cultural influence across the Mediterranean. Yes it’s likely much of that knowledge was due to a kind of syncretization of Egyptian knowledge stretching back Millenia and it finally being recorded and disseminated across the Greek speaking world in a way that was preserved until know, but that’s what makes it history. We simply don’t have a lot of records about ancient Egyptian scholarship before the Hellenistic period.
  • JudgePenitent 5y ago
    >>We simply don’t have a lot of records about ancient Egyptian scholarship before the Hellenistic period. Agreed. As robbiep mentioned, this is probably because of Alexander in general. >>The period of time where Egypt produced many scholars who we still know by name, and their works and how influential they are, was in the Hellenistic period during which they essentially were culturally Greek. It is interesting to me, how as soon as the Greeks came on to the scene, this process of identifying thought with individuals (the Socratic method, Platonic dialogues, Pythagorean theorem etc) becomes the standard in the West. I personally believe that this is one of the great achievements of Greece, but at the same time, it has blinded us to the ways that civs tended to create and maintain knowledge in a much more communal process. >>If you looked at really ancient Egypt you would not find much that could be extrapolated to the “Western civilization” compared to the Greeks. I agree in general it is easier to relate to the Greeks. I suppose I tend to find very deep civilizational roots from the period 6K~ BCE to about 2k~ BCE, an era which included the rise of the first mega civs like Egypt and Sumer among others. Its the broad outlines that fascinate me; mass religions, class structures, very long distance trade, massive monuments and urban environs, etc. I suppose I tend to see much in common in the broad outlines. (and for me, broad outlines always have a greater impact than any Homerian epic)
• dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Western civilization begins with Pythagoras (b. 570 BC) who deliberately synthesized a large number of cultural/philosophical traditions (Thracian, Syrian, Babylonian, Persian, Egyptian and Greek). In other words, from the very beginning, Western Civilization was about cross-national integration. By 200 BC, Greek was the lingua franca from India (e.g., Ashoka pillars written in Greek) to Egypt to Britain (reference on request).
• nanis 5y ago
  > I am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks." Why not start with the written word[1]? It seems to me for the origins of today's "Western" civilization, one ought to look further northwest than Greece[2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts#Before_1000_BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_wri... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples#Origins