6 ms·

The sooner we use PKI for identification in some oauth2 like system (where we can choose to redact irrelevant information such as our name or address) the bette

The sooner we use PKI for identification in some oauth2 like system (where we can choose to redact irrelevant information such as our name or address) the better. Brisbane Australia scans ID cards on entry to nightclubs (I think there’s a control where if you’re booted from one club you’re barred from all for the night). I’m all for a safe nightlife, but good luck asking a bouncer what their data retention, data privacy, and operational/technical security are without getting laughed out of the cue.

axiosgunnar 5y ago
But PKI still doesn‘t solve the „two people who look similar“ attack, right? All PKI can do is „this photo matches this information“ perfectly. It cannot do „this person matches this photo“ perfectly.
- phyalow 5y ago
  Arguably PKI can do that exactly if it is paired with a facial recognition toolkit... A slippery slope.
- bdhess 5y ago
  You could use the PKI’s revocation capabilities to ensure that each person only had one valid ID.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    Yes but what about deliberate borrowing of a PKI from a similar looking friend?
- gruez 5y ago
  You need some sort of smart card/secure element to ensure the ID itself can't be duplicated.
  - toast0 5y ago
    Duplication isn't needed if I just borrow a similar enough looking person's id and return it before they notice.
- shalmanese 5y ago
  You could have an optional service where the DMV sends you a push notification/SMS every time your ID is scanned.
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
  Yeah correct, but IDs are easily fake able anyway. The purpose of ID is to stop low leve falsification, high level ID forgery involves bribes for . Worst comes to it, I’d opt more for biometric verification provided the software / hardware is produced by a sane entity such as local government and not some seedy nightclub.
markzzerella 5y ago
I've left parties because they go to clubs that scan your ID and take your photo before you can enter on several occasions. Cryptographically verifiable identification is not a good idea, regardless of intentions.
- nojito 5y ago
  What’s wrong with scanning your ID?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - wmf 5y ago
    I assume they get far more information about you than they need.
    - hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
      Then sell it to marketing teams, or send goons to your house if they think you’re causing trouble, or stalk you.
      - gwerbret 5y ago
        Hired goons?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
        Nightclub owners aren’t the least shady people, I’m sure there’s already some on their payrolls so no need for more…
    - mindslight 5y ago
      I'd assume the information on the 2d barcode is the same as what's printed on the front. The problem is that you have no idea whether a scanner is connected to a larger surveillance database. A GDPR-style law and real enforcement would go a long way to restoring some societal trust in the US. As things stand right now, it's prudent to put tape over the 2d barcode and the printed ID number, and only remove it when necessary (eg actually interacting with the police).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
StopHammoTime 5y ago
They are not as complicated as you think. They don’t retain your ID, they simply OCR the license number and check against a known list of offenders.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  How can you tell? Plus, even if they're not as sophisticated yet, all it takes is some marketing oxygen-wasters to say that they could improve profits/conversions/etc by 1% by capturing ID information for this to become reality.
  - 15155 5y ago
    It's an advertised feature on this product: https://patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars https://patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars I have no idea where GP lives in that this information wouldn't be retained for some reason (in the US.)
- 15155 5y ago
  Absolutely false. Dispensaries, nightclubs: many if not most all retain information parsed from the AAMVA-encoded text within the PDF417 barcode on the back. Most of these devices aren't using OCR, either, because why would you when you have a 2D barcode standard?
zeeZ 5y ago
The German ID card works something like that. The fields you as a vendor are approved for, you can make either required or optional server-side. The user can then choose what they want to add or to abort process. It can be read either with a pin that's printed on it, or with your Personal six digit pin, depending on use case. You can tell it to just do an age check (has completed nth year) or a place check (lives in community with x ID) and it'll just return yes or no. There's also a pseudonym function that returns a unique ID per card+vendor combination (so the same vendor can tell it's the same ID again, but a different vendor would receive a different ID). I can't see it used in night clubs though. There's a staggering amount of requirements you have to meet in order to receive certification to go to one of the handful of service providers that meet even more requirements to run a secure server that are connected to the PKI allowed to talk to the ID card.

axiosgunnar 5y ago

But PKI still doesn‘t solve the „two people who look similar“ attack, right? All PKI can do is „this photo matches this information“ perfectly. It cannot do „this person matches this photo“ perfectly.

phyalow 5y ago
Arguably PKI can do that exactly if it is paired with a facial recognition toolkit... A slippery slope.
bdhess 5y ago
You could use the PKI’s revocation capabilities to ensure that each person only had one valid ID.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Yes but what about deliberate borrowing of a PKI from a similar looking friend?
gruez 5y ago
You need some sort of smart card/secure element to ensure the ID itself can't be duplicated.
- toast0 5y ago
  Duplication isn't needed if I just borrow a similar enough looking person's id and return it before they notice.
shalmanese 5y ago
You could have an optional service where the DMV sends you a push notification/SMS every time your ID is scanned.
hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
Yeah correct, but IDs are easily fake able anyway. The purpose of ID is to stop low leve falsification, high level ID forgery involves bribes for . Worst comes to it, I’d opt more for biometric verification provided the software / hardware is produced by a sane entity such as local government and not some seedy nightclub.

markzzerella 5y ago

I've left parties because they go to clubs that scan your ID and take your photo before you can enter on several occasions. Cryptographically verifiable identification is not a good idea, regardless of intentions.

nojito 5y ago
What’s wrong with scanning your ID?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- wmf 5y ago
  I assume they get far more information about you than they need.
  - hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
    Then sell it to marketing teams, or send goons to your house if they think you’re causing trouble, or stalk you.
    - gwerbret 5y ago
      Hired goons?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
        Nightclub owners aren’t the least shady people, I’m sure there’s already some on their payrolls so no need for more…
  - mindslight 5y ago
    I'd assume the information on the 2d barcode is the same as what's printed on the front. The problem is that you have no idea whether a scanner is connected to a larger surveillance database. A GDPR-style law and real enforcement would go a long way to restoring some societal trust in the US. As things stand right now, it's prudent to put tape over the 2d barcode and the printed ID number, and only remove it when necessary (eg actually interacting with the police).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

StopHammoTime 5y ago

They are not as complicated as you think. They don’t retain your ID, they simply OCR the license number and check against a known list of offenders.

Nextgrid 5y ago
How can you tell? Plus, even if they're not as sophisticated yet, all it takes is some marketing oxygen-wasters to say that they could improve profits/conversions/etc by 1% by capturing ID information for this to become reality.
- 15155 5y ago
  It's an advertised feature on this product: https://patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars https://patronscan.com/id-scanner-for-bars I have no idea where GP lives in that this information wouldn't be retained for some reason (in the US.)
15155 5y ago
Absolutely false. Dispensaries, nightclubs: many if not most all retain information parsed from the AAMVA-encoded text within the PDF417 barcode on the back. Most of these devices aren't using OCR, either, because why would you when you have a 2D barcode standard?

zeeZ 5y ago

The German ID card works something like that. The fields you as a vendor are approved for, you can make either required or optional server-side. The user can then choose what they want to add or to abort process. It can be read either with a pin that's printed on it, or with your Personal six digit pin, depending on use case. You can tell it to just do an age check (has completed nth year) or a place check (lives in community with x ID) and it'll just return yes or no. There's also a pseudonym function that returns a unique ID per card+vendor combination (so the same vendor can tell it's the same ID again, but a different vendor would receive a different ID). I can't see it used in night clubs though. There's a staggering amount of requirements you have to meet in order to receive certification to go to one of the handful of service providers that meet even more requirements to run a secure server that are connected to the PKI allowed to talk to the ID card.