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The mobile landscape presents a very difficult choice. Choose Android, get actual access to your device and install what you want but have your privacy complet

The mobile landscape presents a very difficult choice. Choose Android, get actual access to your device and install what you want but have your privacy completely trampled upon by Google Choose Apple, get marginally better privacy but no ownership of your phone and no possibility to install what you want. I wish we had a reasonable alternative, it's so frustrating to have to choose between two bad alternatives and the behavior of those companies that completely disrespect and tramples their customer right makes my blood boil. I just want both the right to use my phone fully and the right to my privacy.

jhasse 5y ago
You can use Android without Google, for example https://e.foundation/ https://e.foundation/
- marcodiego 5y ago
  EOS is what runs my phone and I like it. I plan to buy a librem 5 or pinephone as soon as my will to spend enough money on them gets strong enough.
  - hsousa 5y ago
    Lineage OS here, works marveseouly.
rusk 5y ago
There really needs to be a third way … how are Linux smart phones looking? No hope of getting WhatsApp etc presumably but at the very least a fairly solid browser should be possible …
- sammorrowdrums 5y ago
  Work on PinePhones and Librem 5 is going well. There are still issues of course but I’ve been blown away by the community efforts to iron out the issues. You can get Linux Signal and you’d still need to have it connected to an android or iOS device too, but that would at least give you messaging. The other caveat being that there are still many apps that are not designed for mobile form factor, and while there is strong work on libhandy and many apps use it for responsive GTK apps, there are many great apps were work hasn’t yet started for mobile sizing/touch input/virtual keyboard
  - randmeerkat 5y ago
    > I’ve been blown away by the community efforts to iron out the issues. What’s the best way to get involved?
    - sammorrowdrums 5y ago
      Well, contributing apps that do stuff you want a Linux phone to do, working on the existing apps you want to bring to the mobile form factor. Also submitting issues and spreading the word help. Mastodon is where many of the developers in open source world hang out so follow @linmob@fosstodon and Librem folks and you’ll find the community. Testing, sponsoring, buying the hardware all great options too.
- rob74 5y ago
  I think a "de-Googled Android" like "/e/" is a more realistic alternative currently if you actually want to use the phone...
  - Haemm0r 5y ago
    or GrapheneOS
donkarma 5y ago
Do you need a phone?
- realusername 5y ago
  When now you have banks & governement apps, I'd say that falls down under the definition of required / public infrastructure.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    Plus access to public places via QR codes verifying you have been vaccinated / recently tested negative.
    - upofadown 5y ago
      But you are the one providing the QR code in that case so you can normally just print it out or get a card sent to you. You don't need a phone just to display an image...
      - Spivak 5y ago
        I've encountered a few apps where the QR codes are only valid for a few minutes and rotate. For your vaccine status it's probably not an issue but using QR codes to auth yourself for payments or access will probably be a no-go eventually.
  - megous 5y ago
    The only thing I wasn't able to do without so far is SMS 2nd factor. Dumbphone is enough for that. I don't mind if banks/govs require use of some protocol. But forcing use of specific apps goes against past achievements to make public institutions use open formats and protocols, so I reject that where possible, or complain. It should not be acceptable. I still remember times when people had to pirate MS office to be able to open some .doc from their gov, or use MS windows to run some proprietary form filling software. That's mostly a thing of the past, thankfully. "My-app or highway" attitude feels like a setback in that regard.
chappi42 5y ago
SailfishOS/Jolla is a great option. The problem is, that some important (e.g. banking) apps are missing and cannot be installed/run with the Android emulator. Another problem is, that Sailfish is available only in very few countries, e.g. not in the US.
- Ndymium 5y ago
  With Sailfish you also have to give up all the security advancements in Android/iOS, in both good and bad. You can do what you want more freely, but also each app has equal access to all your data. Unless they've implemented some access control in the later versions, but I haven't heard about it.
  - chappi42 5y ago
    I believe the permissions are more granular now but I didn't look into it in detail. See: https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Android_Compatibility#Permissions https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Android_Compatibility#Permission..., https://sailfishos.org/ https://sailfishos.org/ (search for security) or https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-apps-permission/5466 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-apps-permission/5466.
    - Ndymium 5y ago
      That's pretty cool. Looks like it's not active for 3rd party SFOS apps yet, though: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-17th-june/6984 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-17th-...
vmception 5y ago
Eh Apple users you can still download this app and it will stay on their phones after it is removed from the app store This post seems to mischaracterize what is going on and seems to be pre-prepared sentiment that has nothing to do with what actually is happening or going to happen Apple users can still file share dos games, if they download that app now. Not clear what level of device control you are reacting to, without agreeing or disagreeing with your sentiment.
- curt15 5y ago
  Don't iOS apps check in with Apple periodically for permission to run?
  - vmception 5y ago
    A future OS update can break app compatibility if the app is not updated, apps not on the store won't be updated Restoring a device from cloud backup will download all your apps, except apps no longer on the store The device right now, with the OS right now, with the app right now will still be able to use this app and its file sharing feature in perpetuity which is an aspect that isn't different or worse than other kinds of devices or computers. Only the system restore embellishments being different or better or worse. People on other systems that pay for apps can still run into scenarios where their updated operating system is not compatible with an app they paid for. I'm not trying to be an apologist for things Apple or the mobile landscape could do better, only pointing out the standard people seem to be asking for without realizing it.
  - newscracker 5y ago
    My understanding is that if the developer certificate is revoked, then the app would fail to run. But otherwise, apps on the device should run even if they’re removed from the App Store (by Apple or by the developer).
- newscracker 5y ago
  It will stay on the phone, but won’t be available for downloading again since it’s being removed by Apple. Once the phone dies and the user buys a new phone, there won’t be a way to get this app unless the user copied the app package through a third party application on a Mac (Apple removed the ability to sync/backup app packages to a Mac since iTunes 12.7).
xerox13ster 5y ago
We had a third option but developers very publicly refused to support it and Google worked tirelessly to hamstring it in every way they could. Now we're all crying for a third platform because Apple is too restrictive and Google, surprise (to no one least of all WP users), turned out to be evil and I feel absolutely no sympathy for the tech community, particularly developers who decry the current paradigm. We chose this.
- toxik 5y ago
  It’s funny that we software developers have been so coddled into thinking that we don’t need unions because we get paid enough for our work. Yet we all know and see these oversteps by companies, taking away our very ability to work our trade as we see fit, piece by piece, inch by inch. I support the EFF, but that’s basically all I know how to do. Imagine if Google’s software developers went on strike every time they tried to pull another AMP on the open web?
  - durovo 5y ago
    I don't understand how unions would help here. Closed platforms are in the interest of developers. Devs make a good amount of money on closed platforms like iOS. Closed platforms are not in the interest of users.
    - arvinsim 5y ago
      Developers are also users.
      - whatshisface 5y ago
        A consumer union is an interesting idea but not what people think of when you say "union." It is actually a really good idea if you think about it... if labor unions can counterbalance labor monopsonies maybe consumer unions can counterbalance monopolies.
        5y ago
verytrivial 5y ago
Re: Android, I tried to log out of YouTube on my phone yesterday. It said "Sure, as long as you don't mind logging out of GMail too." I was taken aback by this -- I didn't realise this was a hostage situation.
- Ballas 5y ago
  If you cannot uninstall the youtube app, you should be able to freeze it (with adb). (then take a look at youtube vanced)
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    + for Youtube Vanced. Basically, there is no reason to use Google's YT app these days.
  - Y_Y 5y ago
    NewPipe is an excellent YouTube client. (Though you should add their repo instead of using the outdated version that comes with fdroid.)
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  Yes, Google is using Gmail specifically for this purpose. Once you use Gmail on an Android device, it installs a Google account with all its consequences like getting the list of all your contacts, tracking you in Google apps and so on. For that reason I tried several alternative apps that don't involve adding a Google account to my device, but they were less comfortable to use - specifically, the search function was subpar.
  - andrewl-hn 5y ago
    If you use 3rd part clients for Google services - YT, Gmail, Calendar, etc. and run non-Chrome browser (Firefox is very good on Android, and supports many extensions) you can largely avoid Google. However, Play and Location sharing are much harder to block.
    - 5y ago
newscracker 5y ago
I agree with most of your points. > Choose Apple, get marginally better privacy I disagree with the word “marginally” here. Compared to Android, it’s far better and keeps staying ahead (while Android may try to catch up for certain features and controls).
- swiley 5y ago
  Almost all iOS apps are sending telemetry to data brokers like Facebook and the platform makes open source stuff extremely hard. It really is marginal when you look closer.
  - everdrive 5y ago
    Yes, but only if you're foolish enough to install the apps. With Android, an individual app may or may not be a worse actor than it would be on an iOS device. But, it hardly matters since Google is primarily doing all the invasive tracking on an Android device, and you have zero control over this.
    - swiley 5y ago
      >Yes, but only if you're foolish enough to install the apps If you won't install any apps why bother with a smartphone then?
      - eesmith 5y ago
        It's hard to even find a good feature phone these days. At least I'm looking for one now because my Nokia E5-03 died yesterday so now I have to figure out what to get. I want something small, that I can stick in my pocket and not worry about the screen, with days of standby battery life, and where I don't have to read and "agree" to pages of legalese. In the heyday of feature phones, I could pick one up for $20. Nowadays, those phones are designed for old people, and are more expensive than a cheap smart phone.
        5y ago
swiley 5y ago
>wish we had a reasonable alternative There's the PinePhone. I'm posting from one right now. It's still not super easy to use and non-voip calls/mms are still a bit of a mess.
wintermutestwin 5y ago
>the behavior of those companies that completely disrespect and tramples their customer right Here is a "radical" idea: what if we had an Apple users union? What if Apple had to justify their app censorship to that union? What if the union could vote that censorship out? Our current capitalistic model assumes that competition is the solution for the consumer, but the Apple/Google stranglehold is essentially indisruptable. Of course, the only way we could really get this union model would be to have it forced by the same government which has repeatedly and increasingly failed to protect the consumer from these bloated monopolistic corporations. I guess we'll have to settle for some optimistic SciFi porn. Paging Cory Doctorow: https://pluralistic.net/ https://pluralistic.net/
- xerox13ster 5y ago
  Something like an agency to protect consumers?
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    The problem with consumer protection agencies is that they're subject to regulatory capture. Politicians take Apple's money, or are subject to threats to remove thousands of jobs from their jurisdiction. What you really want is a third party app store which is operated as a co-op, supports multiple platforms (making it easier for users to switch and keep their apps), and has enough users to have bargaining power.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  I love it but the main power a union wields is the collective action of the members to strike. When the union says "Ok, Apple isn't cooperating, so everyone... " ...actually, what would you have the members do? Turn off icloud? Stop buying new airpods? You will never get all the "users union" members to give up one atom of convenience.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    If the union members are willing to strike, i.e. go without pay for an arbitrarily long period of time, why wouldn't users be temporarily willing to go without anything, when they know there is a good self-interested reason for doing so? Saying "people won't do that" is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. Convince them that it's in their interest and they will.
Darvon 5y ago
GrapheneOS - android access with better than iphone security
kiririn 5y ago
The tables turn if you consider ownership of your app settings and internal data On Android it is locked down in an inaccessible /data partition, unless rooted. (Ignoring /sdcard and the iOS equivalent Files app) On iOS you can access almost the entire filesystem via extracting iTunes backups. You can freely dig into app internal database, files, message history, etc. You can even edit these backups and restore them, allowing full write access
TroisM 5y ago
> Choose Android, get actual access to your device lol, not sure which android you are talking about... probably the one where you need to find an exploit to be able to root it (I guess even HN forgot that you are supposed to be administrator on your own computer)
Teknoman117 5y ago
I really wish there was a large enough player to get non-Android (Linux) drivers for the flagship mobile phone processors. The fastest of the open source phones right now has the same processor as the Pixel 2. IIRC it might even be another libhybris implementation (glibc/mesa/gbm userspace on an Android kernel and driver stack).
colordrops 5y ago
If you are talking about the marketplace, yes, but if you as an individual want google out of your life, there are multiple android distributions without Google included by default.
- badkitty99 5y ago
  Google is impossible to get out of your life. Big brother will never take his eyes off of you, there is nothing you can do. A different operating system or hardware change is laughably not going to do much
- thayne 5y ago
  It's possible, but not very practical for most people.
lilboiluvr69 5y ago
I am very happy with my current setup after flashing my new One Plus 9 Pro with LineageOS for microG (https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/). It's LineageOS with application spoofing and comes pre-baked with microG. I'm able to use all the standard apps (Uber, games, etc) without a Google account. I use Aurora instead of the Google Play Store, local maps as my GPS back-end, and my phone only contains the apps I actually used instead of pre-baked vendor bullshit. It's all super smooth and completely stable. I really can't say enough nice things about it. If you're looking for the third option, I would really give aftermarket android roms a try.
- bpye 5y ago
  I’ve tried that path before but SafetyNet makes it hard. I can’t use my banking app for example, and for better or for worse, I wouldn’t be able to access my work email either.
  - EvanDotPro 5y ago
    I haven't looked in a while, but last time I checked, Magisk had a SafetyNet bypass. It's a cat and mouse game of course, but when I was using it, Magisk stayed ahead of Google 90%+ of the time.
    - boring_twenties 5y ago
      So about that... the developer of Magisk has been employed by Google since about 2 months ago: https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-developer-topjohnwu-leaves-apple-joins-google/ https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-developer-topjohnwu-le...
  - neurostimulant 5y ago
    Did you try skipping the root step when flashing your custom rom? I never had any problem with safetynet as long as I don't root the phone.
  - rchaud 5y ago
    I remember being able to do mobile banking on a website on my BlackBerry. It must have been 2010 or '11, before banks began rolling out native apps. I don't understand why that's not possible now. Responsive websites are basically 1:1 in functionality w/ desktop, there is no need to have separate, gimped "m.bank.com" sites anymore. End result of this is that I stopped doing banking on my phone, and 90% of my use cases are now served by F-Droid or by apps not on the Play store.
ksec 5y ago
>I wish we had a reasonable alternative You know... since 2017 when I started getting wary of Apple due to Qualcomm, IMG and Services Strategy. I sometimes wish Microsoft are still in the Mobile race. Trying find some synergy between Desktop PC gaming, Xbox and Mobile. Surface Phone. Porting some of their work from Xbox. But unlike Microsoft and Google. Apple has no inherent weakness in their business and strategy. They also have an extremely strong cult following both online and offline. So unless government managed to do something about it ( which I seriously doubt ), the future will be as frustrating as it is now.
- spicybright 5y ago
  I wish they made a Zune HD phone. The visual design of the UI was seriously gorgeous.
  - bobberkarl 5y ago
    The original Zune windows app is still head and shoulders above spotify. They had: - great song management - better than YouTube song discovery (looking into playlists with the same song) - incredible ui (skins) - small memory footprint I wonder who worked on that team and what they are up to today. And/or if Microsoft could open source it.
  - iNate2000 5y ago
    I still think Windows Phone was good. Perhaps they should have marketed it as a Zune phone.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
stalfosknight 5y ago
Apple's privacy and security practices are much more than just "marginally" better.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
>I wish we had a reasonable alternative, it's so frustrating to have to choose between two bad alternatives It's highly likely that even if there's an commercial alternative which gains significant market share to compete with duopoly in the future, they will have to do so by either compromising privacy or ownership of the device. Solution right now is to make difficult lifestyle choice by using passion or idealistic projects. LineageOS + Fdroid can get things done for those who use their smartphone as an tool and ready to sacrifice a bit of social conformity(which can be a privilege at current times). There are more extreme alternatives like Linux phones which I hope becomes less extreme in years to come.

jhasse 5y ago

You can use Android without Google, for example https://e.foundation/ https://e.foundation/

marcodiego 5y ago
EOS is what runs my phone and I like it. I plan to buy a librem 5 or pinephone as soon as my will to spend enough money on them gets strong enough.
- hsousa 5y ago
  Lineage OS here, works marveseouly.

rusk 5y ago

There really needs to be a third way … how are Linux smart phones looking? No hope of getting WhatsApp etc presumably but at the very least a fairly solid browser should be possible …

sammorrowdrums 5y ago
Work on PinePhones and Librem 5 is going well. There are still issues of course but I’ve been blown away by the community efforts to iron out the issues. You can get Linux Signal and you’d still need to have it connected to an android or iOS device too, but that would at least give you messaging. The other caveat being that there are still many apps that are not designed for mobile form factor, and while there is strong work on libhandy and many apps use it for responsive GTK apps, there are many great apps were work hasn’t yet started for mobile sizing/touch input/virtual keyboard
- randmeerkat 5y ago
  > I’ve been blown away by the community efforts to iron out the issues. What’s the best way to get involved?
  - sammorrowdrums 5y ago
    Well, contributing apps that do stuff you want a Linux phone to do, working on the existing apps you want to bring to the mobile form factor. Also submitting issues and spreading the word help. Mastodon is where many of the developers in open source world hang out so follow @linmob@fosstodon and Librem folks and you’ll find the community. Testing, sponsoring, buying the hardware all great options too.
rob74 5y ago
I think a "de-Googled Android" like "/e/" is a more realistic alternative currently if you actually want to use the phone...
- Haemm0r 5y ago
  or GrapheneOS

donkarma 5y ago

Do you need a phone?

realusername 5y ago
When now you have banks & governement apps, I'd say that falls down under the definition of required / public infrastructure.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Plus access to public places via QR codes verifying you have been vaccinated / recently tested negative.
  - upofadown 5y ago
    But you are the one providing the QR code in that case so you can normally just print it out or get a card sent to you. You don't need a phone just to display an image...
    - Spivak 5y ago
      I've encountered a few apps where the QR codes are only valid for a few minutes and rotate. For your vaccine status it's probably not an issue but using QR codes to auth yourself for payments or access will probably be a no-go eventually.
- megous 5y ago
  The only thing I wasn't able to do without so far is SMS 2nd factor. Dumbphone is enough for that. I don't mind if banks/govs require use of some protocol. But forcing use of specific apps goes against past achievements to make public institutions use open formats and protocols, so I reject that where possible, or complain. It should not be acceptable. I still remember times when people had to pirate MS office to be able to open some .doc from their gov, or use MS windows to run some proprietary form filling software. That's mostly a thing of the past, thankfully. "My-app or highway" attitude feels like a setback in that regard.

chappi42 5y ago

SailfishOS/Jolla is a great option. The problem is, that some important (e.g. banking) apps are missing and cannot be installed/run with the Android emulator. Another problem is, that Sailfish is available only in very few countries, e.g. not in the US.

Ndymium 5y ago
With Sailfish you also have to give up all the security advancements in Android/iOS, in both good and bad. You can do what you want more freely, but also each app has equal access to all your data. Unless they've implemented some access control in the later versions, but I haven't heard about it.
- chappi42 5y ago
  I believe the permissions are more granular now but I didn't look into it in detail. See: https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Android_Compatibility#Permissions https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Android_Compatibility#Permission..., https://sailfishos.org/ https://sailfishos.org/ (search for security) or https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-apps-permission/5466 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-apps-permission/5466.
  - Ndymium 5y ago
    That's pretty cool. Looks like it's not active for 3rd party SFOS apps yet, though: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-17th-june/6984 https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-community-news-17th-...

vmception 5y ago

Eh Apple users you can still download this app and it will stay on their phones after it is removed from the app store This post seems to mischaracterize what is going on and seems to be pre-prepared sentiment that has nothing to do with what actually is happening or going to happen Apple users can still file share dos games, if they download that app now. Not clear what level of device control you are reacting to, without agreeing or disagreeing with your sentiment.

curt15 5y ago
Don't iOS apps check in with Apple periodically for permission to run?
- vmception 5y ago
  A future OS update can break app compatibility if the app is not updated, apps not on the store won't be updated Restoring a device from cloud backup will download all your apps, except apps no longer on the store The device right now, with the OS right now, with the app right now will still be able to use this app and its file sharing feature in perpetuity which is an aspect that isn't different or worse than other kinds of devices or computers. Only the system restore embellishments being different or better or worse. People on other systems that pay for apps can still run into scenarios where their updated operating system is not compatible with an app they paid for. I'm not trying to be an apologist for things Apple or the mobile landscape could do better, only pointing out the standard people seem to be asking for without realizing it.
- newscracker 5y ago
  My understanding is that if the developer certificate is revoked, then the app would fail to run. But otherwise, apps on the device should run even if they’re removed from the App Store (by Apple or by the developer).
newscracker 5y ago
It will stay on the phone, but won’t be available for downloading again since it’s being removed by Apple. Once the phone dies and the user buys a new phone, there won’t be a way to get this app unless the user copied the app package through a third party application on a Mac (Apple removed the ability to sync/backup app packages to a Mac since iTunes 12.7).

xerox13ster 5y ago

We had a third option but developers very publicly refused to support it and Google worked tirelessly to hamstring it in every way they could. Now we're all crying for a third platform because Apple is too restrictive and Google, surprise (to no one least of all WP users), turned out to be evil and I feel absolutely no sympathy for the tech community, particularly developers who decry the current paradigm. We chose this.

toxik 5y ago
It’s funny that we software developers have been so coddled into thinking that we don’t need unions because we get paid enough for our work. Yet we all know and see these oversteps by companies, taking away our very ability to work our trade as we see fit, piece by piece, inch by inch. I support the EFF, but that’s basically all I know how to do. Imagine if Google’s software developers went on strike every time they tried to pull another AMP on the open web?
- durovo 5y ago
  I don't understand how unions would help here. Closed platforms are in the interest of developers. Devs make a good amount of money on closed platforms like iOS. Closed platforms are not in the interest of users.
  - arvinsim 5y ago
    Developers are also users.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      A consumer union is an interesting idea but not what people think of when you say "union." It is actually a really good idea if you think about it... if labor unions can counterbalance labor monopsonies maybe consumer unions can counterbalance monopolies.
      - 5y ago

verytrivial 5y ago

Re: Android, I tried to log out of YouTube on my phone yesterday. It said "Sure, as long as you don't mind logging out of GMail too." I was taken aback by this -- I didn't realise this was a hostage situation.

Ballas 5y ago
If you cannot uninstall the youtube app, you should be able to freeze it (with adb). (then take a look at youtube vanced)
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  + for Youtube Vanced. Basically, there is no reason to use Google's YT app these days.
- Y_Y 5y ago
  NewPipe is an excellent YouTube client. (Though you should add their repo instead of using the outdated version that comes with fdroid.)
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
Yes, Google is using Gmail specifically for this purpose. Once you use Gmail on an Android device, it installs a Google account with all its consequences like getting the list of all your contacts, tracking you in Google apps and so on. For that reason I tried several alternative apps that don't involve adding a Google account to my device, but they were less comfortable to use - specifically, the search function was subpar.
- andrewl-hn 5y ago
  If you use 3rd part clients for Google services - YT, Gmail, Calendar, etc. and run non-Chrome browser (Firefox is very good on Android, and supports many extensions) you can largely avoid Google. However, Play and Location sharing are much harder to block.
  - 5y ago

newscracker 5y ago

I agree with most of your points. > Choose Apple, get marginally better privacy I disagree with the word “marginally” here. Compared to Android, it’s far better and keeps staying ahead (while Android may try to catch up for certain features and controls).

swiley 5y ago
Almost all iOS apps are sending telemetry to data brokers like Facebook and the platform makes open source stuff extremely hard. It really is marginal when you look closer.
- everdrive 5y ago
  Yes, but only if you're foolish enough to install the apps. With Android, an individual app may or may not be a worse actor than it would be on an iOS device. But, it hardly matters since Google is primarily doing all the invasive tracking on an Android device, and you have zero control over this.
  - swiley 5y ago
    >Yes, but only if you're foolish enough to install the apps If you won't install any apps why bother with a smartphone then?
    - eesmith 5y ago
      It's hard to even find a good feature phone these days. At least I'm looking for one now because my Nokia E5-03 died yesterday so now I have to figure out what to get. I want something small, that I can stick in my pocket and not worry about the screen, with days of standby battery life, and where I don't have to read and "agree" to pages of legalese. In the heyday of feature phones, I could pick one up for $20. Nowadays, those phones are designed for old people, and are more expensive than a cheap smart phone.
      - 5y ago

swiley 5y ago

>wish we had a reasonable alternative There's the PinePhone. I'm posting from one right now. It's still not super easy to use and non-voip calls/mms are still a bit of a mess.

wintermutestwin 5y ago

>the behavior of those companies that completely disrespect and tramples their customer right Here is a "radical" idea: what if we had an Apple users union? What if Apple had to justify their app censorship to that union? What if the union could vote that censorship out? Our current capitalistic model assumes that competition is the solution for the consumer, but the Apple/Google stranglehold is essentially indisruptable. Of course, the only way we could really get this union model would be to have it forced by the same government which has repeatedly and increasingly failed to protect the consumer from these bloated monopolistic corporations. I guess we'll have to settle for some optimistic SciFi porn. Paging Cory Doctorow: https://pluralistic.net/ https://pluralistic.net/

xerox13ster 5y ago
Something like an agency to protect consumers?
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  The problem with consumer protection agencies is that they're subject to regulatory capture. Politicians take Apple's money, or are subject to threats to remove thousands of jobs from their jurisdiction. What you really want is a third party app store which is operated as a co-op, supports multiple platforms (making it easier for users to switch and keep their apps), and has enough users to have bargaining power.
Brian_K_White 5y ago
I love it but the main power a union wields is the collective action of the members to strike. When the union says "Ok, Apple isn't cooperating, so everyone... " ...actually, what would you have the members do? Turn off icloud? Stop buying new airpods? You will never get all the "users union" members to give up one atom of convenience.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  If the union members are willing to strike, i.e. go without pay for an arbitrarily long period of time, why wouldn't users be temporarily willing to go without anything, when they know there is a good self-interested reason for doing so? Saying "people won't do that" is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. Convince them that it's in their interest and they will.

Darvon 5y ago

GrapheneOS - android access with better than iphone security

kiririn 5y ago

The tables turn if you consider ownership of your app settings and internal data On Android it is locked down in an inaccessible /data partition, unless rooted. (Ignoring /sdcard and the iOS equivalent Files app) On iOS you can access almost the entire filesystem via extracting iTunes backups. You can freely dig into app internal database, files, message history, etc. You can even edit these backups and restore them, allowing full write access

TroisM 5y ago

> Choose Android, get actual access to your device lol, not sure which android you are talking about... probably the one where you need to find an exploit to be able to root it (I guess even HN forgot that you are supposed to be administrator on your own computer)

Teknoman117 5y ago

I really wish there was a large enough player to get non-Android (Linux) drivers for the flagship mobile phone processors. The fastest of the open source phones right now has the same processor as the Pixel 2. IIRC it might even be another libhybris implementation (glibc/mesa/gbm userspace on an Android kernel and driver stack).

colordrops 5y ago

If you are talking about the marketplace, yes, but if you as an individual want google out of your life, there are multiple android distributions without Google included by default.

badkitty99 5y ago
Google is impossible to get out of your life. Big brother will never take his eyes off of you, there is nothing you can do. A different operating system or hardware change is laughably not going to do much
thayne 5y ago
It's possible, but not very practical for most people.

lilboiluvr69 5y ago

I am very happy with my current setup after flashing my new One Plus 9 Pro with LineageOS for microG (https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/). It's LineageOS with application spoofing and comes pre-baked with microG. I'm able to use all the standard apps (Uber, games, etc) without a Google account. I use Aurora instead of the Google Play Store, local maps as my GPS back-end, and my phone only contains the apps I actually used instead of pre-baked vendor bullshit. It's all super smooth and completely stable. I really can't say enough nice things about it. If you're looking for the third option, I would really give aftermarket android roms a try.

bpye 5y ago
I’ve tried that path before but SafetyNet makes it hard. I can’t use my banking app for example, and for better or for worse, I wouldn’t be able to access my work email either.
- EvanDotPro 5y ago
  I haven't looked in a while, but last time I checked, Magisk had a SafetyNet bypass. It's a cat and mouse game of course, but when I was using it, Magisk stayed ahead of Google 90%+ of the time.
  - boring_twenties 5y ago
    So about that... the developer of Magisk has been employed by Google since about 2 months ago: https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-developer-topjohnwu-leaves-apple-joins-google/ https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-developer-topjohnwu-le...
- neurostimulant 5y ago
  Did you try skipping the root step when flashing your custom rom? I never had any problem with safetynet as long as I don't root the phone.
- rchaud 5y ago
  I remember being able to do mobile banking on a website on my BlackBerry. It must have been 2010 or '11, before banks began rolling out native apps. I don't understand why that's not possible now. Responsive websites are basically 1:1 in functionality w/ desktop, there is no need to have separate, gimped "m.bank.com" sites anymore. End result of this is that I stopped doing banking on my phone, and 90% of my use cases are now served by F-Droid or by apps not on the Play store.

ksec 5y ago

>I wish we had a reasonable alternative You know... since 2017 when I started getting wary of Apple due to Qualcomm, IMG and Services Strategy. I sometimes wish Microsoft are still in the Mobile race. Trying find some synergy between Desktop PC gaming, Xbox and Mobile. Surface Phone. Porting some of their work from Xbox. But unlike Microsoft and Google. Apple has no inherent weakness in their business and strategy. They also have an extremely strong cult following both online and offline. So unless government managed to do something about it ( which I seriously doubt ), the future will be as frustrating as it is now.

spicybright 5y ago
I wish they made a Zune HD phone. The visual design of the UI was seriously gorgeous.
- bobberkarl 5y ago
  The original Zune windows app is still head and shoulders above spotify. They had: - great song management - better than YouTube song discovery (looking into playlists with the same song) - incredible ui (skins) - small memory footprint I wonder who worked on that team and what they are up to today. And/or if Microsoft could open source it.
- iNate2000 5y ago
  I still think Windows Phone was good. Perhaps they should have marketed it as a Zune phone.

deleted 5y ago

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stalfosknight 5y ago

Apple's privacy and security practices are much more than just "marginally" better.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

>I wish we had a reasonable alternative, it's so frustrating to have to choose between two bad alternatives It's highly likely that even if there's an commercial alternative which gains significant market share to compete with duopoly in the future, they will have to do so by either compromising privacy or ownership of the device. Solution right now is to make difficult lifestyle choice by using passion or idealistic projects. LineageOS + Fdroid can get things done for those who use their smartphone as an tool and ready to sacrifice a bit of social conformity(which can be a privilege at current times). There are more extreme alternatives like Linux phones which I hope becomes less extreme in years to come.