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I have experimented with Hydroponics for vegetables and herbs and it all boils down to a science. We know exactly what nutrient ratios a plant needs, at what st

I have experimented with Hydroponics for vegetables and herbs and it all boils down to a science. We know exactly what nutrient ratios a plant needs, at what stages, and so on, and when done in a controlled environment plants are much healthier and have more consistent yields. There is no “magic” to soil, it’s a chemistry problem. After my experiences people who talk about the soils being “depleted” or whatever sound anti-science to me. We are good at growing a lot of food because big ag has figured out the science and is really damn good at it. In fact it is a miracle; only a few short generations ago famines were a common occurrence. Consistency of flavor and yield reigns supreme, because when someone orders a Big Mac or a Bud Light they want it to taste the same every time. Now of course, there is a whole organic and craft market segment for people who disagree with that premise and it’s served quite well in the US for those who want to pay for it.

user3939382 5y ago
There is also a role for microbes in soil, which is an active area of research. Here’s some science on it, as an example: https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 I would say that’s more than just chemistry, unless you mean chemistry in a sense that’s so general the statement becomes a tautology.
smolder 5y ago
If the chemistry is perfect, why are store bought and fast food tomatoes so bland, for instance? I haven't been scientific about comparing them but the difference in flavor in garden grown tomatoes seems pretty pronounced.
- yetihehe 5y ago
  Because they are different tomatoes, selected for long storage on shelves in shop, not for taste. Your garden tomato will be much tastier, but will start to spoil sooner.
  - scarby2 5y ago
    Interestingly enough consumers drove the market for tasteless tomatoes. customers bought more tomatoes that were more brightly colored and more round, which drove selection for these characteristics
    - yetihehe 5y ago
      Hmm, maybe because they can't select for taste? If it was possible to get sample of tomatoes or other vegetables before buying, maybe things would change?
    - ajnin 5y ago
      Producers want to sell more, therefore they select varieties that look pretty, that are uniform in color and shape, they will also select varieties that keep for a long time for transport, or that grow bigger and ripen faster for better yields, being measured only by weight. Lots of factors but none related to taste or nutritional value. The consumer has very little say in all this.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Nope. I've seen many times seeds from letfover of tasteless salads grow into delicous plants after being just throw away in a fertile garden. And honestly I met so many farmers that have no idea what tomatoes should taste like it's not even funny. Dining at their table, I hear them rejoice the produce in their plate is so good while I cringe because they feels like clown noses compared to the real thing. Just like people can't fathom that we used to have bird migrations that cover the entire sky, people don't realize what we have lost with food. And they think they do, they think you are some kind of bragging posh to tell them that that's not supposed to be like this. But I ate strawberries from my mother in law garden yesterday. It felt like eating sweets. I haven't eaten some like that for 20 years, and I'm a very picky buyer. Her soil is full of life. Fruits and vegetable have been selected for being awesome for centuries. If you treat them well, you will not want to eat a kit kat instead. But I don't blame the kids that do: currently, the kit kat tastes way better that whatever they have for lunch.
- cperciva 5y ago
  Are they the same varieties? Vegetables grown to be sold in stores are selected largely fit their shelf lives, to minimize the loss during the lengthy distribution and sale process. Your garden grown tomatoes are probably a different variety... and almost certainly much fresher.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    No, 2 years ago I ate amazing cherry tomatoes from a friend garden. He told me he didn't plant them, they came out themself out of the shitty store bought ones that he discarded one day. The variety matters, but that's not the end of the story.
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      The other issue with many plants is that they're picked before they're ripe - if you'd eat it straight away, you'd wait longer before picking and it would be tastier, but as you want them to survive transportation and long waiting in store shelves, you're picking them long before they're fully ripe.
      - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
        Of course, it's a collection of things, but it's not true for tomatoes in can, which you can put in right after the harvest. And my ex house mate cans from the garden would always feels like fruit juice while the supermarket one, well...
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      Tomatoes can crossbreed, so the seeds of one plant are not necessarily the same variety as the parent.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  The tomatoes you find in a shop have been picked before they are ripe so that they ripen during transport. This improves yields and reduces spoilage and bruising. However, it results in a tomato that - while it looks like a normal tomato - the sugars and other flavours don't develop in the same way, rendering it bland. If you want to buy tomatoes that taste good, you can get them from a farmers market and they will taste a lot better - even if grown in the same soil with the same techniques as the supermarket tomatoes. Alternatively canned/frozen/preserved tomatoes tend to be made with naturally ripened tomatoes. Obviously you can't really used those tomatoes the same way you'd use a raw tomato, though. This isn't specific to tomatoes, many commercial fruits and veggies are picked before they're ripe.
mastazi 5y ago
> There is no “magic” to soil, it’s a chemistry problem. Soil biology is no "magic" though. > Now of course, there is a whole organic and craft market segment for people who disagree It's almost as if you were suggesting that organic regenerative ag is based on some sort of non-scientific cult but that's not really the case.
- scarby2 5y ago
  > It's almost as if you were suggesting that organic regenerative ag is based on some sort of non-scientific cult but that's not really the case. From an agricultural stand point not necessarily from a consumers who are passionate about it perspective, there's a huge amount of culty anti science.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Maybe but we are discussing agricultural production techniques here, not marketing
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  Mehhhhhh...organic and / or natural anything is based on separating fools from their money. That's not to say that there aren't small numbers of highly informed people who understand what "organic" agriculture is doing, it's to say that the vast majority of people who believe things about "organic" foods believe wrong things. It's conflated with naturalness marketing woo.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    That’s irrelevant though, because in this thread we are discussing agricultural production not marketing.
boudin 5y ago
Thinking this way is the exact problem. You believe you know what a plant needs but that's not true. We don't even know how plants "works" entirely. There's one easy proove, anything grown the way you describe taste like nothing compared to an healthy plant. Quality farming is not about volume or look but the actual quality of the produce. I wouldn't call what you say science at all. As soon as you state that you know everything and that someone who disagrees is anti-science is just plain arrogance, not science. If you're really interested in science though, please read the huge amount of research on soil and plant that has been done since the 1950's so that you catch up at least.... Edit: Forgot to mention something, soil is not only for plants, there's a whole ecosystem that depends on it and need to be taken into account
- prox 5y ago
  Someone in my family is a “plant reader” , he goes all over the world to help with production methods. He can just look at plants, examine it by hand and tell you what the plant needs. It’s quite incredible really. He always says all the factors need to be right, it’s a question of balancing.
  - boudin 5y ago
    That's sounds quite interesting. Never heard of this activity before. I'll look into it definitely!
- incrudible 5y ago
  Too much scolding, too little substance. As soon as people relegate to taste, I tune out. Taste is a first world problem and highly subjective.
  - boudin 5y ago
    You mean taste, one of the sense that makes us what we are today? The thing that humanity and other animals have used to analyze what they feed themselves with? I'm not talking about eating for pleasure, but you can definitely taste that something is wrong with industrially grown veggies and fruits (and the same apply for animal farming).

user3939382 5y ago

There is also a role for microbes in soil, which is an active area of research. Here’s some science on it, as an example: https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 I would say that’s more than just chemistry, unless you mean chemistry in a sense that’s so general the statement becomes a tautology.

smolder 5y ago

If the chemistry is perfect, why are store bought and fast food tomatoes so bland, for instance? I haven't been scientific about comparing them but the difference in flavor in garden grown tomatoes seems pretty pronounced.

yetihehe 5y ago
Because they are different tomatoes, selected for long storage on shelves in shop, not for taste. Your garden tomato will be much tastier, but will start to spoil sooner.
- scarby2 5y ago
  Interestingly enough consumers drove the market for tasteless tomatoes. customers bought more tomatoes that were more brightly colored and more round, which drove selection for these characteristics
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    Hmm, maybe because they can't select for taste? If it was possible to get sample of tomatoes or other vegetables before buying, maybe things would change?
  - ajnin 5y ago
    Producers want to sell more, therefore they select varieties that look pretty, that are uniform in color and shape, they will also select varieties that keep for a long time for transport, or that grow bigger and ripen faster for better yields, being measured only by weight. Lots of factors but none related to taste or nutritional value. The consumer has very little say in all this.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  Nope. I've seen many times seeds from letfover of tasteless salads grow into delicous plants after being just throw away in a fertile garden. And honestly I met so many farmers that have no idea what tomatoes should taste like it's not even funny. Dining at their table, I hear them rejoice the produce in their plate is so good while I cringe because they feels like clown noses compared to the real thing. Just like people can't fathom that we used to have bird migrations that cover the entire sky, people don't realize what we have lost with food. And they think they do, they think you are some kind of bragging posh to tell them that that's not supposed to be like this. But I ate strawberries from my mother in law garden yesterday. It felt like eating sweets. I haven't eaten some like that for 20 years, and I'm a very picky buyer. Her soil is full of life. Fruits and vegetable have been selected for being awesome for centuries. If you treat them well, you will not want to eat a kit kat instead. But I don't blame the kids that do: currently, the kit kat tastes way better that whatever they have for lunch.
cperciva 5y ago
Are they the same varieties? Vegetables grown to be sold in stores are selected largely fit their shelf lives, to minimize the loss during the lengthy distribution and sale process. Your garden grown tomatoes are probably a different variety... and almost certainly much fresher.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  No, 2 years ago I ate amazing cherry tomatoes from a friend garden. He told me he didn't plant them, they came out themself out of the shitty store bought ones that he discarded one day. The variety matters, but that's not the end of the story.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    The other issue with many plants is that they're picked before they're ripe - if you'd eat it straight away, you'd wait longer before picking and it would be tastier, but as you want them to survive transportation and long waiting in store shelves, you're picking them long before they're fully ripe.
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      Of course, it's a collection of things, but it's not true for tomatoes in can, which you can put in right after the harvest. And my ex house mate cans from the garden would always feels like fruit juice while the supermarket one, well...
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    Tomatoes can crossbreed, so the seeds of one plant are not necessarily the same variety as the parent.
cameronh90 5y ago
The tomatoes you find in a shop have been picked before they are ripe so that they ripen during transport. This improves yields and reduces spoilage and bruising. However, it results in a tomato that - while it looks like a normal tomato - the sugars and other flavours don't develop in the same way, rendering it bland. If you want to buy tomatoes that taste good, you can get them from a farmers market and they will taste a lot better - even if grown in the same soil with the same techniques as the supermarket tomatoes. Alternatively canned/frozen/preserved tomatoes tend to be made with naturally ripened tomatoes. Obviously you can't really used those tomatoes the same way you'd use a raw tomato, though. This isn't specific to tomatoes, many commercial fruits and veggies are picked before they're ripe.

mastazi 5y ago

> There is no “magic” to soil, it’s a chemistry problem. Soil biology is no "magic" though. > Now of course, there is a whole organic and craft market segment for people who disagree It's almost as if you were suggesting that organic regenerative ag is based on some sort of non-scientific cult but that's not really the case.

scarby2 5y ago
> It's almost as if you were suggesting that organic regenerative ag is based on some sort of non-scientific cult but that's not really the case. From an agricultural stand point not necessarily from a consumers who are passionate about it perspective, there's a huge amount of culty anti science.
- mastazi 5y ago
  Maybe but we are discussing agricultural production techniques here, not marketing
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Mehhhhhh...organic and / or natural anything is based on separating fools from their money. That's not to say that there aren't small numbers of highly informed people who understand what "organic" agriculture is doing, it's to say that the vast majority of people who believe things about "organic" foods believe wrong things. It's conflated with naturalness marketing woo.
- mastazi 5y ago
  That’s irrelevant though, because in this thread we are discussing agricultural production not marketing.

boudin 5y ago

Thinking this way is the exact problem. You believe you know what a plant needs but that's not true. We don't even know how plants "works" entirely. There's one easy proove, anything grown the way you describe taste like nothing compared to an healthy plant. Quality farming is not about volume or look but the actual quality of the produce. I wouldn't call what you say science at all. As soon as you state that you know everything and that someone who disagrees is anti-science is just plain arrogance, not science. If you're really interested in science though, please read the huge amount of research on soil and plant that has been done since the 1950's so that you catch up at least.... Edit: Forgot to mention something, soil is not only for plants, there's a whole ecosystem that depends on it and need to be taken into account

prox 5y ago
Someone in my family is a “plant reader” , he goes all over the world to help with production methods. He can just look at plants, examine it by hand and tell you what the plant needs. It’s quite incredible really. He always says all the factors need to be right, it’s a question of balancing.
- boudin 5y ago
  That's sounds quite interesting. Never heard of this activity before. I'll look into it definitely!
incrudible 5y ago
Too much scolding, too little substance. As soon as people relegate to taste, I tune out. Taste is a first world problem and highly subjective.
- boudin 5y ago
  You mean taste, one of the sense that makes us what we are today? The thing that humanity and other animals have used to analyze what they feed themselves with? I'm not talking about eating for pleasure, but you can definitely taste that something is wrong with industrially grown veggies and fruits (and the same apply for animal farming).