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Framework Founder here! I am happy to answer any questions on the product.

• peregrine 5y ago
  Any plans for AMD or ARM processor options? The amd ryzen stuff has nearly good performance per watt that the M1 does. I really can’t see myself buying another intel processor for at least a few generations.
  • nrp 5y ago
    Noted in other comments, but we have designed the mainboard to be replaceable and upgradeable by the end user to new CPU platforms. We haven't announced anything yet, but this is a core part of the design and architecture of the product.
  • ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    You seem to be misinformed. Everyone loves to hate Intel (and rightfully so) but Tiger Lake has better IPC and implicitly better single threaded performance than Ryzen. In real world tasks (web browsing, opening an IDE) it often comes on top of AMD. It only loses to AMD in multi threaded benchmarks because of the lower core count (everyone loves to flex Cinebench scores online, but I buy my laptop to use, not run benchmarks). Also, the iGPU in Tiger Lake is more modern and more powerful than the outdated Vega iGPU in Ryzen and it also has AV1 codec hardware decoding unlike Ryzen which is stuck at VP9. Add in Thunderbolt support and using Tiger Lake makes perfect sense for this form factor. Ryzen shines best in gaming laptops with discrete GPUs.
    • Const-me 5y ago
      > In real world tasks (web browsing, opening an IDE) My real-world task is not opening an IDE, it’s using that IDE. Modern C++ compilers are using all available CPU cores just fine. > It only loses to AMD in multi threaded benchmarks These are the only workloads I care about. Not just compilation, many other things as well. You only need single-threaded performance for 2 things, for the stuff that’s inherently serial like gzip, or to run programs made more than 5-10 years ago. I don’t normally play games on a laptop, but even videogames use multiple cores for decades now, since the Xbox 360 / PS3 generation.
      • MikusR 5y ago
        Also web is still single threaded.
        • rvanlaar 5y ago
          What do you mean by that? Firefox and Chrome both have gpu hardware acceleration, and different threads/processes for UI and webpages.
          • scns 5y ago
            Javascript is parsed and executed on one core.
            • littlestymaar 5y ago
              If you have just one tab, with a simple webpage with no iframe, yes. But this use-case is handled even by a first-gen Raspberry Pi. Once you start having several tas open, or web pages with different iframes, modern browsers put those in different processes.
        • Const-me 5y ago
          Indeed, but web is not computationally expensive. Even old computers like my laptop with i3-6157u CPU handle web just fine.
      • rvanlaar 5y ago
        For gzip, try pigz. It's the parallel version of it. I used to want high single core performance for my python code. I've since switched to using VSCode with devcontainers which run remotely on my 5950x. That makes it fast enough ;-).
      • loufe 5y ago
        > You only need single-threaded performance for 2 things, for the stuff that’s inherently serial like gzip, or to run programs made more than 5-10 years ago. You must not be grand strategy game players. Any titles from Paradox and some other popular games are all limited by single core IPC. They are a great example of the limits of multi-threading, some processes and problems cannot be adapted to take advantage of it. If I get such a laptop I'd spend 50% of the time I use it playing such games.
    • infogulch 5y ago
      > the iGPU in Tiger Lake ... has AV1 codec hardware decoding Oh neat, I wasn't aware there were any AV1 decoders in hardware yet, that was always something somebody was complaining about on HN threads (probably MPEG employees HA). Tiger lake was released late last year and AV1 was finalized in 2018; that's got to be a record turnaround time from new codec to hardware decoders in top-selling chips.
    • peregrine 5y ago
      I am informed by my personal experiences. I had an core i5 laptop from 2019 vs r4800 from 2020 and the experience was night and day running arch linux. Just smoother running everything on the AMD. And my power usage was objectively less and my fans turned on way less subjectively. A single browser tab is single threaded, but you REGUARLY are forced to run several electron apps, and have many tabs open. Each requiring processes and threads and ryzen blows it out of the water in responsiveness. It was not uncommon for some language-server running to lag out because some chrome shit was blowing up my cpu/memory, which drove me away from vscode again. The intel is maybe better for gaming or other inherently single program stuff. But at the cost of using WAY more energy and sucking for everything else I do regularly. Further the m1 macs make them both look fairly power hungry and laggy.
• BoysenberryPi 5y ago
  2 questions: 1. Have you sent review copies to any independent review channels like LTT, Gamers Nexus, etc etc? I've seen the Tested video but that was in a very controlled environment and I'm mainly waiting on independent reviews before buying one. 2. More of a business question that I'll understand if you don't want to answer, without sharing any actual numbers, has the preorder volume been more or less than you expected?
  • nrp 5y ago
    Yes! We can't pre-announce anyone's reviews, but we have sent review units out to a few of the big tech review YouTube channels. The pre-order volume has been roughly in line with our expectations. The one big surprise for us was just how much more popular the Framework Laptop DIY Edition is than the pre-built Framework Laptop. We expected some preference from early adopters, but it's actually multiples of volume.
    • TimTheTinker 5y ago
      > The one big surprise for us was just how much more popular the Framework Laptop DIY Edition is than the pre-built Framework Laptop. I'd suggest the reason is primarily that it's a lot more configurable -- people can get closer to their ideal feature set for the least spend (if only by not paying for Windows if they just want Linux).
  • COGlory 5y ago
    There is an LTT review up on floatplane. Presumably it will go to YouTube soon. The long short of it is Linus loves it and purchases his own.
    • LilBytes 5y ago
      Is there? I can't see it :-/ Edit: My mistake, look for "A completely upgradeable laptop?"
  • thereddaikon 5y ago
    PC World posted a teardown video last night. It makes working on any other laptop look like a chore.
• base698 5y ago
  Where is mine?
• justicezyx 5y ago
  How does this compare to Mac nook m1 and air?
  • ben-schaaf 5y ago
    If you want to repair or change anything on an M1 macbook you'd need to desolder components off the motherboard and then also own a spare M1 macbook for donor parts because you can't buy them separately.
    • rvz 5y ago
      > If you want to repair or change anything on an M1 macbook you'd need to desolder components off the motherboard Exactly. Good luck to anyone upgrading the RAM or storage on that thing yourself. It is beyond risky to do this [0] (The article title is also misleading and ignores the extreme risk). I don't think that [0] is remotely an option to the end user. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2021/04/06/m1-mac-ssd-and-ram-upgrade/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/04/06/m1-mac-ssd-and-ram-upgrade/
• viraptor 5y ago
  We're almost all thinking it, so... are you trying to get sued by Apple, or what's the reason for 1:1 copy of the design? Edit: To be clear, I'm not just trying to dunk on the idea. That would be the reason for me not to buy one if it looks like the vendor can fold because Apple dragged them to court.
  • nrp 5y ago
    The lead-in photo on that email happens to be at an angle that doesn't show off the distinguishing features and functionality. On our website you can readily see just how different it is from an Apple product: https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
  • wmf 5y ago
    So many laptops are copying Apple that it's no longer notable.
    • viraptor 5y ago
      Copying elements - sure. But I've never seen one before where I though - this is an Apple product.
      • techrat 5y ago
        If you were confused by the Framework Laptop and thought it was an Apple Product... and I mean this sincerely... Get your eyes checked.
  • everyone 5y ago
    Also kind of sends the wrong message. Aping the masters of planned obsolescence and unrepairability. You'd think they wouldn't want an even passing resemblance to anything apple.
  • luke2m 5y ago
    Almost every thin and light laptop on the market these days looks like a macbook replica. And iirc, macs have a 16:10 display.
• itwy 5y ago
  How compatible is it with Linux? Was it tested with specific distros?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We've been testing with Ubuntu 21.04 and Fedora 34. We'll be releasing guides around both of these soon and other distros in the future. On Fedora 34 respins that are going live soon, everything works out of the box, including the fingerprint reader. On Ubuntu 21.04, everything works out of the box except the fingerprint reader, which requires manually upgrading libfprint.
    • Dracophoenix 5y ago
      What about Arch, Gentoo, Nix/Guix and *BSDs?
      • nrp 5y ago
        We haven't tested those internally, but we hope to see folks in the community try them! We are absolutely happy to help anyone who gets stuck, and as we see which distros are popular we can plan out more official support for them.
    • massysett 5y ago
      Are you considering shipping your own distribution (for instance a modified Ubuntu or Fedora or whatever) and guaranteeing compatibility for that, or do you plan only to issue guides for other distributions?
      • jeswin 5y ago
        Taking focus away from the central vision will jeopardize the company - shipping and maintaining a distro is laborious; so please don't do this. If at all, a script to automatically download/compile deps will be more than adequate (not necessary).
        • 5y ago
• bscphil 5y ago
  From what I can find, the documentation on the screen just says it covers 100% of the sRGB gamut. That's nice, but do you have an example of a calibration profile that shows the full gamut coverage? It would be nice to compare it to Adobe RGB and P3 gamuts. Is the screen HDR or 10 bit input capable?
  • lstamour 5y ago
    Not affiliated with Framework Laptop, but I’ll reply anyway. It’s been my experience that when only sRGB is mentioned, only sRGB is supported. Adobe RGB is relatively rare these days, and any amount of P3 or HDR support is common only in higher end laptops with either very bright backlights or OLED. You might be interested in a new standard, DisplayHDR, which commonly focuses on how bright and technically accurate a screen can be. At this point there are often trade offs between screen technologies, but OLED tends to produce the “nicest” picture. https://displayhdr.org/ https://displayhdr.org/ Also, as a correction, as long as you’re not performing colour grading on footage, you don’t need 10-bit input or output for HDR. It helps, obviously, but technically you can use dithered 8-bit RGB over HDMI 2.0 at 60 fps and still view HDR content with no perceptible difference between the 8-bit and 10-bit or 12-bit formats. For example: https://2020.smpte.org/home/session/325093/perceptually-dithered-hdr-for-8bit-interfaces https://2020.smpte.org/home/session/325093/perceptually-dith... That said, especially when using a computer, I really like the way scrolling feels at 120 fps, so I encourage looking for HDMI 2.1 outputs and inputs for that reason alone. Don’t forget you’ll likely also need a new HDMI cable. As an aside, I’ve tried adapters from DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 and they are so far rather unreliable and prone to overheat.
    • bscphil 5y ago
      > It’s been my experience that when only sRGB is mentioned, only sRGB is supported. I suspect this as well, especially at the price point the Framework laptop is being offered, but that's why I'm asking. I feel that manufacturers providing a approximate gamut coverage plot would be an enormous improvement to the status quo. > any amount of P3 or HDR support is common only in higher end laptops I disagree with this point. The MacBook Air (at $1000) is advertised to have P3 coverage. That's the exact same price (for a shipped laptop) as Framework. It also has HDR support. > Also, as a correction, as long as you’re not performing colour grading on footage, you don’t need 10-bit input or output for HDR. I'm aware - that's why I asked about HDR and 10 bit support separately. Worth mentioning that a bunch of cheap panels only really support 6 bits which then gets dithered, though. You're right that 8 bits in probably sufficient at the 400 nits brightness of the Framework screen.
• emacsen 5y ago
  From the web site, the selling point seems to be around this being a "right to repair" laptop. What's a bit unclear to me is that it seems the Framework Laptop is not be under an Open Source license, unlike the Pinebook Pro, the Librem 14 or the MNT Reform- the MNT being the most "user serviceable" as well as most repairable. Is your laptop fully open source, or if not, what makes it special or different from these other products?
  • solarengineer 5y ago
    For me, "open source" with respect to hardware would imply getting the PCB layouts and other such info that would enable me to modify the electronics and/or produce my own - like a software "fork". The "right to repair" tells me that I would be able to get replacement parts from 3rd party suppliers. Once upon a time, Television units also came with the circuit diagrams that helped third-party repair shops troubleshoot and fix TV issues. I am not sure if such circuit diagrams would help with the kind of wave-soldered multi-layered circuit boards that we have, but it'd be nice to have, I suppose.
    • emacsen 5y ago
      That's a good distinction to draw, and certainly clarifies things in some ways. The line between the two is somewhat blurry. Back in the day you're talking about, components were often discreet enough that they could be replaced. Today even something as simple as a capacitor is often difficult to replace on a modern circuit board due to a variety of factors. Certainly the large companies (Apple in particular) creates legal barriers to buying chips and other components. I think the distinction between availability and open source will be an interesting one to see how it plays out when hardware is involved.
  • matt_heimer 5y ago
    I'm guessing you haven't worked on many laptops. They aren't meant to be repaired easily in many cases. Want to upgrade the RAM, you need to upgrade both sticks. One is on the bottom side of the motherboard that requires 16 screws be removed and a pry tool to get the bottom case off. The second stick is under the keyboard that requires multiple levels of plastic pieces to be pried off and disconnecting the keyboard cable which can barely be reached. Want to swap the battery? That's 16 screws and enough force to break the adhesion that you are bending the case. Plus the system will complain about the battery if you buy it from the wrong vendor. I like open source. I CARE that I have to trash a thousand dollar laptop because I can't source a replacement keyboard when the "S" popped off. All examples I gave are real life examples which I've encountered.
• rasz 5y ago
  Great, you "somehow" missed my questions last time around. >Every module has a QR code on it that you can scan for step-by-step instructions, support information, and a link to order a replacement from the Framework Marketplace So its a dealer "repair" where you, the dealer, sell me a repair without the labour part in a form of black box to replace? What about the schematics? the Board files? Firmware? Who is the ODM? Compal? Pegatron? Quanta? Clevo? Wistron? Inventec? Flextronics? Did you pay for fully tailor made design? Who else sells a laptop with the exact same design (ignoring form factor)? You dont have a single EE listed on staff. What part of the electrical design do you own? Do you own any part of it at all? This sure looks like tweaked Acer Swift 3 SF313-53, same ODM? Do you own any part of the firmware that goes into the laptop? Will you be able to patch it? "Great Webcam in a Laptop" Thinkpad X1 tablet 2nd gen uses same OV2740, isnt exactly known for great camera. Optics and ISP tuning are the important bits. Can you post a demonstration video instead of one 1mpix picture of a laptop screen at an angle?
  • dylan604 5y ago
    Are you trying to start your own company off the back of the research these guys have done? I didn't see anything about this company claiming 100% open source and private consciousness. I thought that was a different company that never really did anything because of issues you've asked about. If I'm wrong in that, please correct me. Certain chips just couldn't use custom open firmware, so no device was ever going to be 100% open. Just seems your questions might be a bit off target. No wonder you never got a response "the last time around".
  • nrp 5y ago
    Apologies for the miss. There were almost 1000 comments on the last big thread! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508 End users have the ability to order replacement parts for every part of the laptop, down to the granularity of things like individual flex cables. We've also released reference CAD under open source licenses for the Expansion Card system for people to be able to develop their own (https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/expansioncards https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/expansioncards). Our embedded controller firmware is also open source, and we'll be posting the repository shortly. Full schematics for the rest of the system are available to independent repair shops that get Framework hardware in for repair. Our main manufacturing partner is Compal, who makes laptops for many other large US notebook makers. Apart from off the shelf modules like the SSD, RAM, WiFi, and LCD, the Framework Laptop is entirely custom to us, and we own all of the design and tooling. We don't have an EE on the team page, but I am actually an electrical engineer by training (or at least that's what it says on my degree from Carnegie Mellon), and our systems lead Kieran is an EE by background as well. We own the embedded controller firmware, which is based on Chromium EC, and we'll be releasing the source soon. We use a licensed BIOS that we've customized for this go-around, but we would like to move to an open BIOS in the future. Some of the reviewers have positive comments on their hands-on experience with the webcam. While it won't be at the level of a standalone plug-in webcam, it is substantially better than what is available in other notebooks.
• Teever 5y ago
  1. What was the sort of reaction to your unorthodox modular laptop design from the OEMs who are used to making standard laptop designs? Do OEMs have a preference for making disposable products or do you think that they see opportunity in making more modular machines that users can upgrade piece-meal over years? 2. Is there anything hardware wise that would prevent someone from making an arm based motherboard for this device, or even a RISCV based motherboard?
  • nrp 5y ago
    From our manufacturing partners, there was definite skepticism at first, but as we worked together it became immediately clear that what we had proposed was entirely doable! For consumer electronics brands, I think their challenge will be the business model shift that comes from focusing on longevity instead of short replacement cycles. We have a counter-positioned business model to that! Nope, it is entirely doable from a technical perspective to build an ARM SoC-based mainboard for the Framework Laptop! I haven't seen a RISC-V SoC that has the necessary interfaces for it to work well in a laptop yet, but I strongly suspect that isn't far away.
• geophile 5y ago
  Why a 3:2 display? That is an extremely odd choice. I used 4:3 displays for years, and was very pleased when wider displays became available.
  • binarycrusader 5y ago
    Why not? Microsoft Surface devices also have a 3:2 display. Personally I love 3:2 displays as vertical space makes for a far more pleasant experience programming and reading.
    • nrp 5y ago
      Yep! The better experience for writing and coding with more vertical real estate is why we chose it. It also gave us a better form factor to work with for enabling our Expansion Card system.
  • vngzs 5y ago
    I love 3:2 displays. They're wider than 4:3 but maintain the vertical height necessary to see a bunch of code onscreen. If I only get one display (for portable use), I'll pick 3:2 every day.
  • ghosty141 5y ago
    The trend is going that way again. 16:10/3:2 is becoming very common again and that's great! The extra screen real estate is very useful and the body can accomodate a bigger touchpad. 16:9 limts vertical space a little too much imo.
  • bitL 5y ago
    3:2 is great for coding. I've just started using 3:2 Zenbook S UX393 3300x2200 and that screen ratio is phenomenal!
• Dracophoenix 5y ago
  1) What are the chances of a 15.6 inch version with a numpad or should I not hold my breath? 2) Are dGPUs expected in the this or an upcoming version? 3) Color options other than white? 4a) Does the keyboard use low-profile Cherry switches or something else? (Edited) 4b) Are the keys backlit? (Edited) 5) ETA on TB4 ports? 6) Is there a 99Wh battery for the laptop?
  • nrp 5y ago
    1) We can't announce anything yet, but our current 13.5" Framework Laptop will certainly not be the last product we ever build! 2) See question 1. 3) We've designed the bezel to be color customizable, and there are some photos of orange and white ones on our website. We'll be adding more colors as we go. For the chassis itself, it is anodized aluminum. We don't currently have plans for additional aluminum colors though. 4) We have a custom keyboard with 1.5mm key travel scissor switches, which is longer key travel than most other <16mm notebooks. 5) We can't announce anything on Thunderbolt compatibility until we complete certifications, so keep a look out for that. 6) The internal battery is 55Wh.
    • rsyring 5y ago
      I bought six of these laptops for myself and my team, mostly to support your efforts. FWIW: 1) I'd like a 15.6" version 2) Without a keypad...don't throw off the symmetry of keyboard and touchpad 3) bigger battery Keep up the good work! I'd love to be using these laptops 15 years from now.
      • nrp 5y ago
        Thanks! We hope you're using them 15 years from now too! We can't say anything about future product plans yet, but our current laptop is not the last product we'll build!
    • Dracophoenix 5y ago
      I edited the 4th question. Hopefully you see and answer 4b! Thanks for answering my other questions. I'll certainly be looking forward to your product as more information and metrics materialize.
• mrleinad 5y ago
  Any plans for a different keyboard layout? I see you have planned for different languages, but I didn't see different layouts.
  • nrp 5y ago
    We currently have ANSI and ISO layouts for languages, and JIS coming soon. Within this form factor, those are likely what we are limited to.
    • rgoulter 5y ago
      How feasible do you think an ortholinear layout would be?
      • nrp 5y ago
        It is technically possible, but the cost of custom tooling for it would be unfortunately be astronomical relative to the number that we could reasonably sell. At some point in the future as we continue to grow the Framework Laptop install base, we'd love to revisit that though!
• creese 5y ago
  Can the USB4 expansion card transmit data at 40Gbps? Do you have any plans for Thunderbolt 4?
  • nrp 5y ago
    The USB-C Expansion Card is purely passive passthrough designed to minimize signal loss and voltage drop, so it depends on the capabilities of the specific mainboard. The current mainboard does support 40Gbps through that card. For Thunderbolt, we can't state anything yet until we complete certifications.
• dorfsmay 5y ago
  Any chance for a keyboard with a trackpoint and its 3 buttons in the future? A lot of us, addicted to the trackpoint, are not liking some directions Lenovo have taken in the recent years.
  • eikenberry 5y ago
    +1, please consider offering this. A track point and 3 real buttons are so much nicer than a trackpad. At least to some of us. ThinkPads success seems to indicate there are a lot of us.
    • nrp 5y ago
      A touchpad with buttons is something that we have explored, and is in theory a replacement module we can create. Inserting a track point would be much more challenging from a cost and engineering feasibility standpoint. We may have underestimated the level of interest around track point...
      • JoshTriplett 5y ago
        At the moment, there are exactly two things stopping me from jumping on this: 1) 3 buttons at the top of the mousepad, ideally contoured to be comfortable and easily differentiated. 2) A 3+ year warranty, rather than just 1 year. The screen and the high-end internals are really grabbing me.
        • elric 5y ago
          Their warranty is utterly ridiculous. Even the EU mandates 2+years for all consumer electronics. I'm not expecting Next Business On Site warranty from a new company (though that would be nice...), but an option for at least 3 years is the very minimum for me.
          • nrp 5y ago
            We'll certainly be complying with EU warranty requirements before we start selling there. For longer warranties in general, that is something we would like to do. We're giving ourselves some time in market in order to price it appropriately, but since our product is easy to repair, we believe our costs for supporting warranties will be lower than it would be for less repairable products.
• peterburkimsher 5y ago
  Which battery controller are you using? I've had trouble replacing the cells on my MacBook Pro 2014 Retina 15" A1398. If it's a TI BQ20Z451, will you keep the default unseal code?
  • nrp 5y ago
    It's a TI BQ40Z50-R3. I would strongly recommend doing a pack replacement rather than cell replacements for a Framework Laptop Battery. We'll be making replacement battery packs readily available at a price point that hopefully makes it the clear choice.
    • ant6n 5y ago
      The question is whether it will be possible to get a replacement battery five years from now (at a reasonable price point).
      • peterburkimsher 5y ago
        Exactly. Apple even have third-party batteries in their supply chain (installed by an AASP), the printing of the warnings on the cells and the PCB date code look very suspiciously shanzhai. Yet Apple Support were able to confirm that the order number is real and the part came from them. They charged me $600 for it too. It'd better be reliable, unlike the $100 third-party one that idles at 12V, and a voltage spike when waking from sleep killed my logic board.
        • ValentineC 5y ago
          Do you live in a city without an Apple Store? MacBook battery service is $199 USD for their most expensive models: https://support.apple.com/mac/repair/service https://support.apple.com/mac/repair/service I paid exactly $288 SGD to get my battery replaced at the Apple Store here in Singapore.
          • peterburkimsher 5y ago
• craftkiller 5y ago
  1. Are you able to limit the min/max charge of the battery to reduce wear / increase longevity? For example, if I'm usually plugged into an outlet then I would want to limit my max charge to 80% or 60% since high charge levels degrade the battery faster, but I wouldn't want to disconnect the charger because then I'd be pointlessly burning through battery cycles. 2. Coreboot: whats the status on that? 3. When I violently yank my laptop in any random direction, the military-grade type-c cables that I forgot were plugged into all 4 ports on my framework laptop will naturally put significant strain on the type-c ports on the modules. My question is: how possible is it that I manage to also damage the interior usb type-c port on the laptop body? 4. What run-time loaded closed source binary blobs are needed for the full use of the hardware in one of your pre-built configurations? 5. Repair shops can get access to your schematics after signing some forms (presumably involving a NDA). Can I sign the same forms to get the same access? 6. If you cease to exist, everyone essentially just bought a bunch of proprietary dongles that are unlikely to be reused due to their size/shape. This would lead to the exact opposite of your goals by directly causing e-waste. Why won't that happen? 7. Is the fan, in any way, a standard form factor / are there models from competing brands that would work in that spot? I don't know how loud your fan is, but if I was unhappy with the noise from the fan it would be good to know that I could consider other competing models.
  • nrp 5y ago
    1) We don't have this yet, but it is on our firmware roadmap. 2) Also on our (long term) firmware roadmap! 3) It would be extremely difficult to damage the internal USB-C ports from force on the USB-C Expansion Card. You'd destroy the USB-C Expansion Card first, which is inexpensive to replace. 4) This is a great question, and actually on our list of blog posts we want to write. I don't have the answer off-hand, but it shouldn't be different than other recent Intel-based notebooks. 5) Currently we're limited to offering it to repair shops, but we're looking at ways to expand that in the future. 6) For the Expansion Cards, since they are standard USB-C devices, you can plug them into other USB-C hosts (though as you note, they are somewhat oddly shaped for that). We've also released open source CAD and documentation for people to develop their own Expansion Cards. 7) The heatsink and fan is custom to the system by form factor necessity.
• ivraatiems 5y ago
  This is a really interesting product. Is there any hope of onboard graphics being an option in the future? How upgradable are the CPUs/motherboards?
  • nrp 5y ago
    It's unlikely we'll add discrete graphics in this form factor, but integrated graphics is actually much better than it has been in the past (e.g. Overwatch and GTA:V can run at 60fps), and there is also support for eGPUs. We've designed the mainboard to be end-user replaceable for upgrades, and we'll be developing new ones for future CPU platforms as we go.
    • ivraatiems 5y ago
      Thanks for the quick answer! Any thought of a larger form-factor model eventually?
      • nrp 5y ago
        There's nothing we can say yet, but we're not done with our mission!
    • fragileone 5y ago
      How is the eGPU support? I had to get a 2018 Dell XPS with 4 PCIe lane Thunderbolt 3 support since the 2017 version had only 2 PCIe lanes dedicated to TB3.
• Foomf 5y ago
  Any plans on a model with a touchscreen? If this could have a touchscreen, I'd buy it in an instant!
  • nrp 5y ago
    We designed the display interface to be able to support a touchscreen, and we've designed the display to be easy to replace, but we don't have a touchscreen yet!
    • Frameworkscr 5y ago
      Perhapa just kike the initial announcement post- list out all the replacements in piepeline so people wont ask "any plans for this optjon"
• ajot 5y ago
  Do you have any other keyboard + pointing device design in mind? I've read sibling comments about trackpoint and numpad, but what about a 7-row keyboard and/or a smaller trackpad with real buttons for clicking? Is this possible? Do you see there's a market for it?
  • nrp 5y ago
    The cover that the keyboard and touchpad install into is the limiting factor. The tooling for that part is extremely expensive, so we only have one version of it. We have the ability to install ANSI, ISO, and JIS keyboard layouts with any language in the artwork, but we can't change the keyboard or touchpad geometry beyond that without shelling out big money for a new cover. A touchpad with buttons is something we believe could fit in the existing cover though, and something we want to explore more when we have time.
    • OJFord 5y ago
      How does that work then - do left shift & enter key caps bridge over the cover on the respective layouts where they're bigger? i.e. on the US/ANSI layout photographed on the site - L Shift is using both L Shift and Backslash holes; Enter is also occupying Octothorpe, but not covering the hole above it where Backslash is in that layout? So you have a fixed, what I think the mechanical keyboard enthusiasts call 'switch plate', and then different sized key caps for the relevant keys making them occupy multiple spaces with dummy switches or whatever?
  • Liskni_si 5y ago
    +1 The current keyboard is not really fit to be used as a primary keyboard. A proper 7-row keyboard with full-sized arrows is really a must for people who use laptop keyboards as their main daily driver. Here's a picture of what one looks like: https://imgur.com/Epo5kBw https://imgur.com/Epo5kBw Please make something like that possible!
• psankar 5y ago
  Please make full sized keys for up and down arrows, with the arrow keys in an inverted T shape. Group function keys in groups of four. Also provide Mac style keyboard if possible with a command key. I use mac keyboard because it is safer on wrists and thumbs. All the best.
  • occoder 5y ago
    Yes please! I second all these requests! Full-size arrow keys: by adding another column of keys to the right side of the keyboard. That way you get dedicated Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys as well. See [1]. Grouping function keys: also put a wider gap between Esc and F1, F12 and Delete. Mac keyboard: that'd be nice! How compatible are they to hackintosh BTW? [1] https://img.business.com/o/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYnVzaW5lc3NuZXdzZGFpbHkuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8wMDkvNjQ0L2kwMi9sZW5vdm8taWRlYXBhZC0xMDAtcGhvdG8tNS5qcGc= https://img.business.com/o/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYnVzaW5lc3NuZXdzZ...
    • culopatin 5y ago
      Hackintosh on this thing would be the ultimate hackbook. Same display ratio (not sure if resolution is exactly the same though), pretty much same form factor, and you can upgrade the ram. While they support intel at least.
      • ValentineC 5y ago
        Fingers crossed that Apple releases new MacBooks with Intel's 11th generation chips, since it looks like macOS currently doesn't support hardware acceleration for Intel's new Xe Graphics.
• torgian 5y ago
  This looks like a very cool laptop! What material is it made out of? Do you have information about how the pci-e lanes are routed? I’m wondering because it would be interesting to see how EGPUs perform with this laptop. Do you have plans to release different types of key caps ( such as U-shaped keys? )
  • nrp 5y ago
    The housing is made of 50% post-consumer recycled aluminum. The plastic parts are on average 30% post-consumer recycled plastic. There's some more information about the PCI-e lanes here: https://community.frame.work/t/iommu-groups-for-thunderbolt-4/1916 https://community.frame.work/t/iommu-groups-for-thunderbolt-... We don't currently have plans for other keycap geometries, but we do have a range of different languages in progress.
    • torgian 5y ago
      Thank you. Good to see some of the parts are recycled components too.
• 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  What support like outside the US?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We're currently shipping to the US and Canada. We're working on adding additional countries, and making sure we can offer proper support in addition to being able to ship the product there.
    • silon42 5y ago
      Yes, for Europe you need keyboard with ISO layout (upside down Enter + extra key).
      • nrp 5y ago
        Definitely. We have ISO keyboards tooled up and are finalizing the artwork for different languages for it.
• Seirdy 5y ago
  One of the biggest causes of (un)planned obsolescence, if not the biggest cause, is an end to firmware and microcode updates. Once they stop coming in, vulnerabilities start piling up. For how many years can consumers expect to receive these updates?
  • nrp 5y ago
    For the firmware we control, there is relatively little surface area and it is easy for us to continue to maintain. For the firmware that is delivered or embedded by Intel, we're in the same boat as everyone else using the same CPUs.
• heavyset_go 5y ago
  How is Linux support?
  • nrp 5y ago
    Pretty good already. I mentioned in another comment that Fedora 34 respins as of this week have full support for the Framework Laptop built in. On Ubuntu 21.04, everything works out of the box except the fingerprint reader, which requires a newer libfprint.
    • throwawaycuriou 5y ago
      How's Manjaro/Arch support looking?
    • heavyset_go 5y ago
      Awesome, are you planning to participate in LVFS[1]? I see there's an entry for Framework, but no firmware uploaded yet. [1] https://fwupd.org/ https://fwupd.org/
• Lorin 5y ago
  How about jobs? Interested in the senior frontend role, are you open to Canadian candidates? Do we mention HN in the cover letter? :)
  • nrp 5y ago
    Yes! We're hiring across a bunch of roles in development, marketing, operations, and more: https://jobs.frame.work https://jobs.frame.work We don't currently have anyone on the team in Canada, but we are definitely open to it for the right candidate. Please do mention HN so we know where people are coming from!
• G3rn0ti 5y ago
  Where do I get all drivers required when I decide to install Windows myself buying the DIY version?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We have a link to the driver bundle at the end of the Windows installation guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Windows+10+Installation+on+the+Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition/92 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Windows+10+Installation+on+t...
• baybal2 5y ago
  Who is manufacturing it? Did you pick a single contractor, or separate companies make separate modules?
  • nrp 5y ago
    I noted in another comment that we partnered with Compal as our main manufacturer, as they are one of the strongest notebook manufacturers currently and they believe in our mission. For many of the other modules, we've partnered with other manufacturers specialized in different areas. We have a series of technical deep dive blog posts where we go into each: https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-deep-divethe-touchpad-and-fingerprint https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-deep-divethe-touchp...
    • baybal2 5y ago
      How do you connect the keyboard? I see the cable from the keyboard in the upper lid not going directly to the main PCB, but first to the same board as the touchpad. Is there some IC scanning the keyboard right in the keyboard module, and turning it to something like usb or i2c?
      • nrp 5y ago
        The touchpad PCB acts as a passive signal passthrough for both the keyboard and the fingerprint reader, so that we can have a single cable going from the Input Cover to the mainboard.
• 0x0EB0DA10 5y ago
  Really love this product and the concept! I'd love if you guys would build a touchscreen tablet too, although at this point I'm probably asking too much. The tablet landscape ain't pretty with much of its electronic component were destined to landfill instead of being reusable like this.
  • nrp 5y ago
    A 13.5" laptop is our first, but certainly not last category. Just about every category in consumer electronics is missing a product like this, with rare exceptions like desktop PCs and what Fairphone is doing in the smartphone space.
• schmorptron 5y ago
  Hey! Love the entire concept behind it. That being said, for mass-adoption and a large parts "ecosystem", do you guys anticipate you'll be able to get the initial price for the laptop down in the future with either cheaper casing materials or after recouping the initial R&D cost for the custom motherboard design and such? It's totally understandable that the first product from a rather small company would demand some sort of higher price, your initial investment into R&D and product design & manufacturing must've been huge! But is this something we can expect to get a bit better in the future?
  • nrp 5y ago
    The base price for a new system will likely stay in this range, barring future lower-end mainboards like one using an ARM SoC. However, one thing that will help on cost of entry in the future is refurbished and used Framework Laptops. Since the product is easy to repair and upgrade, we want to foster a healthy secondary market. We don't want anyone to put an old Framework Laptop that they are not using into a drawer and forget about it. We want to get them to list it on the Framework Marketplace to find another happy user.
    • TreeInBuxton 5y ago
      If you ever do start doing bringup of an Arm SoC, drop me an email (in my profile) - I work on an internal BSP team at Arm and would be happy to (unofficially) assist
    • pzo 5y ago
      Some idea about considering other option as well. Would be great to buy your motherboard (original with some adapter or completely differently designed) that would fit into old macbooks or thinkpads - this way people could reuse case, keyboard, touchpad and maybe even battery or screen.
    • schmorptron 5y ago
      Alright, thanks for the answer!
• ghego1 5y ago
  Thank you for this! I love the colored bezels, even if it's not much, it's one of those little things that make a difference. Any plans to sell in Europe (Italy)?
  • nrp 5y ago
    Yes. We have the necessary certifications for Europe, and are working through setting up keyboard languages, fulfillment, support, and everything else we will need to have to be successful there.
    • modernerd 5y ago
      Great to hear! Checkout page request: please make it so you can buy a different keyboard than your shipping address/locale, in case that's not already on your roadmap. Apple/Lenovo let you spec an “English International” (ISO) keyboard even if you're shipping to Germany/Austria, for example, so that you're not forced to buy QWERTZ.
• Rd6n6 5y ago
  Not really a question, but if you one day offered a thicker version with the option of an extended battery and more key travel, that would be exciting
• nrp 5y ago
  I am out of question-answering time for the day, but will respond tomorrow to anything new that comes up. Thanks everyone for the thoughtful questions, interest in what we're building, and belief in our mission!
• stkdump 5y ago
  Does the extra connector reduce the quality of the USB-C signal? I am asking because my current notebook seems already a bit flaky with a 4K 60Hz display connected via USB-C, especially with an extra docking station in between. DP and HDMI directly from the notebook seem a bit more stable.
  • nrp 5y ago
    There is a small amount of signal loss from the extra connector pair. This is normally fine, but if your monitor+cable situation is already flaky, there is potentially risk there. We would recommend picking up a cable designed to higher protocol standards or using a shorter cable if you see issues.
• luckystarr 5y ago
  Any plans to "open up" (for a price) the specification for outside companies, so they can build components labeled "framework compatible" or some such?
  • nrp 5y ago
    Absolutely. We’ve already released open source reference designs publicly for the Expansion Card system, and we’re happy to enable third parties on other modules too.
    • skykooler 5y ago
      What about the cover with the keyboard and trackpad?I know you've said it's expensive to make tooling for, but perhaps a 3rd party could offer an alternate version with a trackpoint or something?
      • nrp 5y ago
        If any company is interested, it's certainly a conversation we'd like to have.
        • airstrike 5y ago
          Have you considered going down the route of MIL-spec and turning this into a Defense-friendly product? Would imagine the armed forces would prefer to repair than to replace their hardware and the ability to upgrade down the line is basically how all of Defense contracting works
• Elvar 5y ago
  Why are there not a Linux version? Hate to pay for Windows, that i won't be using anyway.
  • bmsleight_ 5y ago
    Customise the order and there is an bring your own OS option.
    • gradstudent 5y ago
      It's a shame it's not an option for the preconfigured version. Especially as the DIY Laptop pricing has Windows 10 at ~$200.
    • jagged-chisel 5y ago
      > You can also load your own operating system later, like a Linux distribution. Yeah, but I’d rather not pay for that Windows license. Edit: Oh, I see that you have to DIY the entire laptop in order to NOT select a Windows OS.
      • nrp 5y ago
        That is correct, DIY Edition comes without an OS installed or an OS license (though you can add a Windows license). We’ve made the setup process for the DIY Edition really straightforward, and we think kind of fun too: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition+Quick+Start+Guide/57?lang=en https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition...
• akavel 5y ago
  Is there a chance you might produce a fanless configuration? Since I first bought a fanless machine, I'm a total sucker for them and just stopped considering fanless computers for home use anymore (100% confirmed by my later buying choices). I'm happy to notice that the fan seems to be on the mainboard in your DIY Build video, so at a first glance it looks not impossible; but I also understand there's more to that, in overall heat transport and airways design/considerations, that's why I'm still asking and really interested to know the answer!
  • nrp 5y ago
    You can technically unplug the fan, but with a U-series CPU, it will just be throttling most of the time. A lower-power/lower-performance mainboard without a fan is something we could technically do in the future if there is customer demand for it.
• varjag 5y ago
  Just wanted to say: great job! Am generally skeptical of modular consumer designs but this looks very tidy. As another hardware developer really appreciate the thought that went into this.
• rarspace01 5y ago
  When can I expect a German Keyboard?
• baybal2 5y ago
  What is the webcam module used? What's the cost for them?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We have a deep dive on the webcam here: https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam
• jokoon 5y ago
  How long are you planning to support spare parts?
• timwaagh 5y ago
  What kind of premium do you ask vs a reasonably priced brand like Acer?
• busymom0 5y ago
  This is outstanding. One question - I really wish there was a way to remove the camera as well as microphone (if there's any built in). Is that possible?
  • fsflover 5y ago
    Consider Librem 14 laptop instead, it has hardware kill switches. By the way, I wish this laptop had them too.
    • nrp 5y ago
      Good news! We do have hardware kill switches for both the camera and microphone: https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam
      • fsflover 5y ago
        Amazing, thank you!
  • nrp 5y ago
    We have hardware kill switches for both the camera and the microphone. You can actually also remove that module entirely if you'd like. We published a guide on how to replace the webcam (so you would just stop after the removal steps): https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Webcam+Replacement+Guide/87?lang=en https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Webcam+Replacement+Guide/87?...
    • busymom0 5y ago
      Thanks, that's awesome! if there's an option for buying one without a webcam and mic all together to save a few bucks, that would be awesome!
• OJFord 5y ago
  Can you give the roughest of indications for European orders (UK for me, if it's going to be that granular)? I've been signed up to the mailing list to be notified since first post here, really looking forward to it; I've been tempted to use Canadian pre-order via a favour ever since that opened up, but should I just be patient, will it be 'soon'? Do you anticipate that (if this goes as well as I hope and assume it will/is) a v2 model would have an upgrade path from 'v1' (as it were, that for pre-order/sale now) - i.e. buy new case, new motherboard (or whatever) and it's effectively the same as if you bought the new one? Or have you accepted/do you think that not all parts can be fully modular and independently saleable?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We’re aiming to be in the UK, parts of Europe, and parts of Asia by year’s end. We plan to keep compatible within the current chassis for the foreseeable future. This means that as we support new CPU platforms, existing users can upgrade to them by replacing their mainboard (and in some cases memory).
• rosege 5y ago
  How do you feel about competition from the M1 processor? I can see when its more widely available a fair amount of ppl might want to move from x64.
• pikrzyszto 5y ago
  Are there any plans for ECC memory support?
  • infogulch 5y ago
    I'm also very interested in ECC memory. Historically Intel has leveraged access to ECC memory as a price segmentation tool, so I wonder if it's even possible to support ECC until an AMD-based board is available. Unfortunately ECC memory is also significantly more expensive (probably propped up by Intel's segmentation strategy), but it is available in SO-DIMM form factor which kinda surprised me.
• sjogress 5y ago
  I must say the Framework laptop is a very enticing offering! Do you plan on offering it in Scandinavia with Scandinavian keyboard layouts?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We do have artwork ready for several Scandinavian keyboard layouts. The actual timing for each county will be later this year or next year.
• pmorici 5y ago
  Will there be a version that you can use a 2.5” drive with?
• culopatin 5y ago
  Do you have a comparison of battery runtime with each config?
  • nrp 5y ago
    We've tested MobileMark 2018 at ~11 hours on the Base config, dropping to ~10 hours on the Professional config (due to more DRAM). Runtime will always depend on workload though.
    • culopatin 5y ago
      It would be awesome if you could provide a more real life test like the reviewers you gave the laptop to will do. Having matching claims on your site vs what the reviewers say can only help your credibility, which is much needed as a new product. If you put 11hs on your site but the average reviewed time is 4hs, it’s not going to look great. I know you guys are super busy launching this and there are a million things to look at, just sharing my opinion as a consumer. The other thing that would be useful to know is a clear return and warranty policy. The items I buy from Amazon without much worry are the ones I know I can return easily, for a product as new and unknown like yours, I’ll probably stand back if I don’t know what the return process works like. Thanks for responding!
• Volrath89 5y ago
  Please please launch this in non-US countries as well
  • nrp 5y ago
    We’re currently in Canada too, and we plan to start adding more countries later this year.
• rogers18445 5y ago
  How many monitors can you plug into the laptop given the appropriate number of modules? Unlikely to be 4, but is it at least 2 or hopefully 3?
  • arendtio 5y ago
    It probably depends on resolution and refresh rate, so you might want to add some details.
    • nrp 5y ago
      You can run 4 4k 60hz monitors simultaneously if you turn off the internal display, or three if you keep the internal display on. The maximum external display resolution is 8k 60hz, but you can't run multiple of those.
      • arendtio 5y ago
        Sounds cool. I have a Lenovo Thinkpad T490 which struggles to drive two 4k displays at reasonable refresh rates. 4k60 + 4k30 is the best I was able to achieve so far (via Thunderbolt and an additional HDMI cable).
• oldandboring 5y ago
  Can you estimate an approximate ship date for Batch 2 pre-orders?
  • Aachen 5y ago
    It says right on top of the DIY configure page for me: batch 2 August, batch 3 September.
    • oldandboring 5y ago
      Yes, I know that. I was hoping to see if he could tell at this point when they would ship with some specificity, eg. first week in August, end of August, etc.
      • Aachen 5y ago
        Ah, sorry then I can't help you.
        • oldandboring 5y ago
          The question was for Nirav. You dropped yourself in with an unhelpful comment. I told you it was unhelpful and you have now confirmed that, correct, you cannot help. :facepalm:
• mike_ivanov 5y ago
  Full size arrow keys, please.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]