7 ms·

Fantastic blog post. I highly recommend reading it in full, and also checking out the work of the European Spreadsheet Risks Group, and Felienne Hermans specifi

by narush 5y ago

Fantastic blog post. I highly recommend reading it in full, and also checking out the work of the European Spreadsheet Risks Group, and Felienne Hermans specifically (referenced in the original post). I've been working on a spreadsheet startup [1] for the past 8 months or so and those folks have a large amount of absolutely upsetting-but-helpful research on spreadsheet usage/errors. After the past few years working with spreadsheet power users, here's how I like to think about them: 1. Most spreadsheets are just used a lists/trackers [2]. 2. Some spreadsheets are very calculation heavy, and are better understood as complex software projects (usually modeling something; s/o to those PE mfs) than as anything else. 3. Spreadsheets make the transition between (simple list/tracker) and (complex software project very fluid. This flexibility usually means that the (complex software project) that is created is buggy as hell. Spreadsheets give not-super-technical users an incredible visibility into their data. Spreadsheets give not-super-technical users a way to program data transformations in what I would argue is the most generally intuitive way that exists. Spreadsheets give not-super-technical users tools to build software without introducing them to proper software development methods. Ya know, like maybe a test. Or a code review. Or no global variables. Etc. If you want to see how we're attacking the spreadsheet problem, check us out. Feedback highly appreciated! [1] [1] https://trymito.io/hn https://trymito.io/hn [2] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2012/01/06/how-trello-is-different/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2012/01/06/how-trello-is-diff...

asdff 5y ago
I don't know why we think the user is some child and try to abstract away any and all complexity from their job, which ends up leading to some proprietary solution with huge inefficiencies somewhere compared to a flat file and a script in python or R. Software like excel is often seen as a way to do stuff you could do in R but without having to write code. Imo that thinking is wrong because it makes this assumption that doing anything at all with a gui is easy and frictionless. I don't know how to do anything in excel. If I have to look up how to make a plot in excel, I will have to find some article on the internet of how to do that in my particular excel version. Excel is tough software to use that only becomes easier after you spend time with it (hint hint, just like programming). If I don't know how to make a plot in R, I might also have to find an article. It's no different, no harder, usually easier in fact, to just do the job in R. All these common tasks in R or excel are all 5 min articles worth of information you have to cram in your head. It's not hard to code, children do it. I'd love to see spreadsheet power users realize that they could be working with much simpler things like parsing plain text files with a few lines of code rather than trying to open some macro heavy spreadsheet on the shared network drive that takes 5 mins just to open on the work issued workstation. I'd guess it would be up to business programs and accounting programs and all these other college majors to actually teach classes in python and R, rather than what they do now which is teach classes in excel. Imo the entrenchment in excel is rooted in ignorance to other (often simpler) options available with python or R, than in any actual critical proprietary features offered by excel. Microsoft is probably pretty happy that their software is so baked into these different academic curriculums, keeping it alive in industry going forward for an entire working persons career after college.
- CJefferson 5y ago
  People aren't learning excel because Universities are part of some Microsoft conspiracy. They are learning it themselves, or from each other. My mother self-learnt excel, first as a to-do list, then a money tracker, then she learned some simple equations to keep track of weekly spending. How in R would someone do that? With a nice graphical view? I agree Excel has many many issues, but people use it because, in my experience, it super easy to use and in particular let's you easily mix data and code.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    People are also learning excel because that's the only way to program in a big company without going through "official IT", which won't listen to what you have to say if you're not a $100 000 project they can offload to a third-party.
  - thefr0g 5y ago
    > People aren't learning excel because Universities are part of some Microsoft conspiracy. They are learning it themselves, or from each other. At least in germany children are often forced to learn excel in school because the official curriculum includes "office software" which is an euphemism for "microsoft product training". This has certainly not developed from necessity. Even someone who thinks school should only be a preperation for the job market would agree that employees who are able to help themselves are better than ones who know how to use a specific version of Excel.
    - mavhc 5y ago
      I'd rather everyone was taught Excel than a very minor set of people learn spreadsheets by themselves. Barely anyone uses spreadsheets in UK it seems
      - thefr0g 5y ago
        I'm really not against teaching spreadsheat software since it's a really useful tool. I just don't like that it's thought very microsoft specific and in depth. Students could benefit way more from some basic computer (science) literacy.
arthurcolle 5y ago
I never thought I'd be someone to do this but 'mito' is slang for pathological liar in French, i.e. short for 'mythomane' haha, kind of funny for something that's supposed to be a persistent source of truth. Names don't matter at all, but just wanted to comment on this. Lol!
johnwalkr 5y ago
“European Spreadsheet Risks Group” is the most European thing ever.
dgudkov 5y ago
>Spreadsheets give not-super-technical users a way to program data transformations in what I would argue is the most generally intuitive way that exists I don't think spreadsheets are a good way to program data transformations at all. Data transformations are inherently a pipeline/function abstraction, and even non-technical users understand that. Spreadsheets don't offer a good way to decompose a data transformation process and inspect each step for correctness. This alone makes them prone to calculation errors. Also, tables are an afterthought to spreadsheets, therefore even trivial joins are always a pain in Excel. I have a good practical experience with building visual pipeline-based data transformation tools [1] for non-technical users and they have been a success. [1] https://easymorph.com https://easymorph.com
- monocasa 5y ago
  > Data transformations are inherently a pipeline/function abstraction, and even non-technical users understand that. Spreadsheets don't offer a good way to decompose a data transformation process and inspect each step for correctness. They absolutely give you that ability; you break the transformation across many cells. Spreadsheets are probably the most successful functional reactive programming paradigm set of languages out there.
  - dgudkov 5y ago
    >you break the transformation across many cells In theory, yes. But the reality, nobody does that unless an error is apparent and needs to be investigated. The vast majority of calculations in Excel spreadsheets are done using cumbersome, multi-line, unreadable formulas that try to pack as much logic as possible into one expression. Such obscure formulas are the main reason why lots of business-critical Excel spreadsheets contain grave errors, many of which are are never discovered.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      It is like programming, there are people that keep doing goto and methods that take two screens in Excel, and there are those that bothered to learn lambda, powerquery and addons.

by narush 5y ago

asdff 5y ago

I don't know why we think the user is some child and try to abstract away any and all complexity from their job, which ends up leading to some proprietary solution with huge inefficiencies somewhere compared to a flat file and a script in python or R. Software like excel is often seen as a way to do stuff you could do in R but without having to write code. Imo that thinking is wrong because it makes this assumption that doing anything at all with a gui is easy and frictionless. I don't know how to do anything in excel. If I have to look up how to make a plot in excel, I will have to find some article on the internet of how to do that in my particular excel version. Excel is tough software to use that only becomes easier after you spend time with it (hint hint, just like programming). If I don't know how to make a plot in R, I might also have to find an article. It's no different, no harder, usually easier in fact, to just do the job in R. All these common tasks in R or excel are all 5 min articles worth of information you have to cram in your head. It's not hard to code, children do it. I'd love to see spreadsheet power users realize that they could be working with much simpler things like parsing plain text files with a few lines of code rather than trying to open some macro heavy spreadsheet on the shared network drive that takes 5 mins just to open on the work issued workstation. I'd guess it would be up to business programs and accounting programs and all these other college majors to actually teach classes in python and R, rather than what they do now which is teach classes in excel. Imo the entrenchment in excel is rooted in ignorance to other (often simpler) options available with python or R, than in any actual critical proprietary features offered by excel. Microsoft is probably pretty happy that their software is so baked into these different academic curriculums, keeping it alive in industry going forward for an entire working persons career after college.

CJefferson 5y ago
People aren't learning excel because Universities are part of some Microsoft conspiracy. They are learning it themselves, or from each other. My mother self-learnt excel, first as a to-do list, then a money tracker, then she learned some simple equations to keep track of weekly spending. How in R would someone do that? With a nice graphical view? I agree Excel has many many issues, but people use it because, in my experience, it super easy to use and in particular let's you easily mix data and code.
- Zababa 5y ago
  People are also learning excel because that's the only way to program in a big company without going through "official IT", which won't listen to what you have to say if you're not a $100 000 project they can offload to a third-party.
- thefr0g 5y ago
  > People aren't learning excel because Universities are part of some Microsoft conspiracy. They are learning it themselves, or from each other. At least in germany children are often forced to learn excel in school because the official curriculum includes "office software" which is an euphemism for "microsoft product training". This has certainly not developed from necessity. Even someone who thinks school should only be a preperation for the job market would agree that employees who are able to help themselves are better than ones who know how to use a specific version of Excel.
  - mavhc 5y ago
    I'd rather everyone was taught Excel than a very minor set of people learn spreadsheets by themselves. Barely anyone uses spreadsheets in UK it seems
    - thefr0g 5y ago
      I'm really not against teaching spreadsheat software since it's a really useful tool. I just don't like that it's thought very microsoft specific and in depth. Students could benefit way more from some basic computer (science) literacy.

arthurcolle 5y ago

I never thought I'd be someone to do this but 'mito' is slang for pathological liar in French, i.e. short for 'mythomane' haha, kind of funny for something that's supposed to be a persistent source of truth. Names don't matter at all, but just wanted to comment on this. Lol!

johnwalkr 5y ago

“European Spreadsheet Risks Group” is the most European thing ever.

dgudkov 5y ago

>Spreadsheets give not-super-technical users a way to program data transformations in what I would argue is the most generally intuitive way that exists I don't think spreadsheets are a good way to program data transformations at all. Data transformations are inherently a pipeline/function abstraction, and even non-technical users understand that. Spreadsheets don't offer a good way to decompose a data transformation process and inspect each step for correctness. This alone makes them prone to calculation errors. Also, tables are an afterthought to spreadsheets, therefore even trivial joins are always a pain in Excel. I have a good practical experience with building visual pipeline-based data transformation tools [1] for non-technical users and they have been a success. [1] https://easymorph.com https://easymorph.com

monocasa 5y ago
> Data transformations are inherently a pipeline/function abstraction, and even non-technical users understand that. Spreadsheets don't offer a good way to decompose a data transformation process and inspect each step for correctness. They absolutely give you that ability; you break the transformation across many cells. Spreadsheets are probably the most successful functional reactive programming paradigm set of languages out there.
- dgudkov 5y ago
  >you break the transformation across many cells In theory, yes. But the reality, nobody does that unless an error is apparent and needs to be investigated. The vast majority of calculations in Excel spreadsheets are done using cumbersome, multi-line, unreadable formulas that try to pack as much logic as possible into one expression. Such obscure formulas are the main reason why lots of business-critical Excel spreadsheets contain grave errors, many of which are are never discovered.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It is like programming, there are people that keep doing goto and methods that take two screens in Excel, and there are those that bothered to learn lambda, powerquery and addons.