6 ms·

Honest question - what do iOS users do in such situations? I'm using Android and we can always install things from outside the store, or even from alternative s

by yoavm 5y ago

Honest question - what do iOS users do in such situations? I'm using Android and we can always install things from outside the store, or even from alternative stores (eg. F-Droid). Is there any similar solution? If the app is open-source, can you at least build it yourself and sideload it as if you are the developer and you're testing your app? What solutions are there?

Joeri 5y ago
iOS users have mostly chosen to accept the walled garden. If they hadn’t, they would be android users.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  This assumes that users understand the implications of the garden they're buying into. For many there may be a strong bandwagon effect, and they don't fully grasp what they are losing.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    I have an iPhone simply to facetime with my parents, who refuse to talk to anyone with a green bubble. You can't make this up. If I could use iMessage on any other device, I wouldn't have an iPhone. Apple knows this, and it probably scares the shit out of them.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    I think I largely understand the implications of the garden I chose, and I doubt there will be much anguish among my less technical family/friends about their loss when they fully grasp that they will never be able to run a DOS emulator on their iPhones.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      The only reason we're talking about something as obscure as DOS is because it wasn't threatening. Now that people have raised awareness of the inconstency they're blocking it, like many other general purpose emulators.
  - colonwqbang 5y ago
    What I don't understand is why so many devs choose to accept Apple's rules. These devs know full well that they will likely be f***** over like this in the end. Yet they still give Apple their business.
    - saagarjha 5y ago
      Because people use iOS devices, and they want these apps.
    - handrous 5y ago
      Much higher rate of sales (apps and IAP) and subscriptions than Android. Not sure how the ad market looks (I've not worked on ad-supported apps) but wouldn't be surprised if those—at least in some categories—also pay so much higher that they're more lucrative on iOS, too, despite the smaller user-base.
- swiley 5y ago
  Nope. Some of them are children. Some need or prefer Apple's locked in stuff (iMessage.) Not to mention Android is a slow burning trash fire. I've seen so many ignorant comments like this about iOS lately I'm on the fence about deleting my HN account. I think I'd be happier, and all the people here who keep defending Apple's abuse would be happier.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Android is a perfectly usable platform. Your comment is just as ignorant as these you criticize.
    - swiley 5y ago
      I never said it was unusable. MSDOS is also a perfectly usable platform full of bad ideas and ridiculous hacks.
      - emteycz 5y ago
        Don't be ridicululous.
amelius 5y ago
Great hackers know when to give up.
meibo 5y ago
You can sign 7 apps a week for your own device with the tethered non-dev Apple ID. The certificates expire a week after, so you need to resign those 7 apps every week or they will stop working. All of the "alternative" stores and distribution methods work with this mechanism, there is no better way and it is completely at Apple's whims. Really, most interested users probably gave up at this point, looking at the decaying Jailbreak ecosystem.
- kjaleshire 5y ago
  You can only have 3 apps + 3 extensions installed on one device simultaneously, however.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
They bow to the will of the true owners of the device they are renting.
arthurcolle 5y ago
use Prompt or another mosh terminal emulator and ssh into wherever you want
- danShumway 5y ago
  For a DOS emulator? Does Prompt stream graphics? Even just for coding, that sounds awful to me. iOS users bought a mobile device, and particularly if they're on an iPad Pro, a mobile device with a really good processor. For me, part of that would be being able to treat it like a mobile device, that it should keep working if I drive through a tunnel, that I should be able to use it on the go. Hard for me to wrap my head around people being satisfied with "ignore that you have a well-built device with interesting sensors in front of you, and instead just use it as a thin client to another functioning computer." There are cheaper thin clients out there than an iOS device if someone is OK ignoring their native hardware, doing all of their programming through a terminal, and having functionality break if their device goes offline.
  - arthurcolle 5y ago
    I agree with you 100% - the situation sucks and I hope that these congressional hearings related to Apple being uncompetitive result in them being forced to allow multiple app stores and especially allow you to use a... mobile computing device for.... mobile computing. But I'm not optimistic. Sent from my iPhone
Vanit 5y ago
The latter as you said, compile it yourself.
- marinhero 5y ago
  Yes, like this https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/
heavyset_go 5y ago
They rationalize no longer being able to do something they used to be able to do, for no real practical or technical reason, as actually being a good thing.
- jsbdk 5y ago
  I don't rationalise it as a good thing. I think there are many things to consider when buying a phone and this is just one of them. Lately Apple started mandating that apps like telegram or discord must make it impossible for iPhone users to see nsfw content, which has tipped the balance towards android for me. For the first time in many years I'm using an Android phone. But as I said, one of all the factors to consider.
  - ZekeSulastin 5y ago
    It’s a bit more nuanced than that - NSFW content can still be shown but the app needs to express a 17+ age rating on the App Store. That’s why apps like the Reddit client Apollo[1] and Google Chrome[2] are 17+. [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apollo-for-reddit/id979274575 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apollo-for-reddit/id979274575 [2] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/google-chrome/id535886823 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/google-chrome/id535886823
    - saagarjha 5y ago
      They also cannot show a switch to allow viewing NSFW content inside the app, similarly to how apps can't mention other payment methods in-app.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  Hence the newspeak of "sideloading" being accepted as opposed to recognizing it as a frankly outrageous and capricious policy designed to encourage an unknowing and comatose userbase.
marinhero 5y ago
Gave up. I was wishing WWDC21 bring something like this due the M1 iPads but all I got was a refresh on Playgrounds... It's frustrating but I'm still inside the garden, and getting more tired by the day.
wodenokoto 5y ago
I don't do anything. It's a phone, not a PC. I got an iPhone because it does what it does well, and doesn't do other things at all. iPhones are slick, costly and secure, at the cost of not being malleable. It's a trade-off I made at purchase time and I know most users of both iPhone and Android never considered that tradeoff.
- marinhero 5y ago
  I partially agree with you but I think the iPad breaks this rationale. They argue it's a computer so why won't they let it be?
  - wodenokoto 5y ago
    Yeah, calling the iPad a PC is very short sighted by Apple. Where is the next generation of developers going to come from, if they grow up on iPads? But I feel the same towards Apples stance on server hardware, which they discontinued over a decade ago: Even if servers don't make a sizeable profit on their own, they help ensure that developers can build large scale stuff inside the apple ecosystem. Yet, that hasn't really been the hindrance I feel it ought to have been.
    - kbenson 5y ago
      > Yeah, calling the iPad a PC is very short sighted by Apple. It's only shortsighted because they lock it down. It's got the same M1 hardware (if slightly less powerfull IIRC), and you can get an official keyboard+trackpad (and many third party ones), so the only thing that really keeps it from being a PC is their software installation policy that locks what can be run.[1] 1: Well, and also their policy of only allowing iOS to run on the hardware. This would be less of an issue if you could throw Linux, or even just Android on them. I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to ship an M1 ARM version of windows if they had hardware that would allow it to run.
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    > Executing code [...] allows for downloading of content without licensing.
prirai 5y ago
Termux
- dvhh 5y ago
  Apparently they also are suffering from limitations with latest andoid version
Laforet 5y ago
Pretty much what you have just described, one needs to pay for the yearly premium of the iOS developer programme in order to run custom code on your own device. Bear in mind that iOS apps are compiled in Xcode so one also needs to own hardware that runs OSX. There are also people offering to sign you app with an enterprise certificate for a fee in the more dodgy corners of the internet but Apple is known to crack down on those once in a while as this obviously goes outside their ToS.
bri3d 5y ago
You can sideload the app yourself - but the account can only have 3 devices, and the app expires and stops running weekly for a free account or every 90 days (iirc - it's been awhile since I entered this particular dumpster fire) for a paid account. This is to prevent you as a developer from using your provisioning profile to backdoor-distribute software to end-users. The largest loophole still is probably Enterprise Distribution, which allows high-limits (long time, many devices) signing associated with an Enterprise account.
- Shank 5y ago
  It’s a year for a paid account, 90 days through TestFlight.
JonathonW 5y ago
If the app's open-source, you can build it yourself, with restrictions on how long the app will function on your device before you have to reinstall it (one year IIRC for paid developer accounts, but only 7 days if you're not enrolled in the paid program). If the app isn't open-source, you don't have any great options. Hypothetically, compiled apps from other developers can be re-signed just like apps you build yourself (see AltStore [1], which uses this technique), but those apps are still time-bombed and have to be periodically refreshed. The barrier to entry means you don't see a ton of apps around that do this; if something can't be compliant with App Store rules, it generally doesn't get made on iOS. (There's also jailbreaking, and there used to be a decently-large community of developers building applications and tweaks for jailbroken iOS devices. That's gotten smaller both as Apple's made jailbreaking more difficult to maintain, and as new features in iOS have made much of the functionality people used to jailbreak for redundant.) [1] https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/
- badkitty99 5y ago
  Jailbreaking is the only way to really use an app that isn’t allowed. And it’s a royal pain in the ass to keep up with the updates, not suited for regular users at all. But it’s still kicking alive and well today
jdavis703 5y ago
I've had a couple of apps disappear (one I know Apple removed, the others I think just suffered from bit rot). I guess it's the same as if my grocery store stops stocking some brand I buy. I'm bummed about it, but life goes on.
DCKing 5y ago
It is possible to sideload apps on iOS, it just requires jumping through hoops that you don’t have on Android. Apple allows sideloading of apps signed by the same Apple account that you’re signed into on your iDevice. Since this is really intended to make developing iOS apps more accessible, it requires resigning or rebuilding apps. Since iDOS is open source, that should be no problem here - you can compile and install your own copy, likely just by loading the upstream project in Xcode and deploying it your iDevice like app developers do. A usability problem is that apps installed this way are only runnable for a week [0], at which point the signature must be refreshed or iOS will refuse to open the app. AltStore [1] is a project that streamlines this ordeal as much as possible. It’s an alternate app store that allows you to install a bunch of open source apps not allowed in the app store (e.g. apps using permissions that would be rejected, or game console emulators). It also comes with a server component that uses Apple’s frameworks on Mac/Windows to refresh those apps’ validity on iDevices on the same network. If you regularly connect your iDevice to a network with an AltServer of your own, the apps should continue to work. It’s certainly not pretty, and very far removed from fare more open Android devices, but workarounds to run your own software on iDevices do exist. There’s an entire subreddit, r/sideloaded, dedicated to this apparently mostly for piracy purposes. [0]: Unless you pay for the Apple Developer Program, which has much longer limits. This limit is for free accounts. [1]: https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/
- saurik 5y ago
  An additional limitation is that you can only have three such applications installed at a time. You also aren't going to be able to get access to functionality like push notifications (which might be obvious) or network extensions (which might not be: you have to have a paid developer account to develop/install a custom VPN for iOS; I find this limitation particularly frustrating, as it seems to mostly serve the purpose of helping authoritarian governments, and it isn't like Android has such a restriction so we know it isn't "par for the course": they are going above and beyond here).
grishka 5y ago
iOS requires apps to be signed with a certificate that chains to an Apple root of trust. The only way around this is jailbreak. IMO this shouldn't be legal.
tinus_hn 5y ago
The target audience for iOS devices does not care about running dos emulators with their custom binaries. Believe it or not, many people are okay with boundaries, especially when the promised and mostly achieved return is a reasonably stable and secure experience.

by yoavm 5y ago

Joeri 5y ago

iOS users have mostly chosen to accept the walled garden. If they hadn’t, they would be android users.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
This assumes that users understand the implications of the garden they're buying into. For many there may be a strong bandwagon effect, and they don't fully grasp what they are losing.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  I have an iPhone simply to facetime with my parents, who refuse to talk to anyone with a green bubble. You can't make this up. If I could use iMessage on any other device, I wouldn't have an iPhone. Apple knows this, and it probably scares the shit out of them.
- FabHK 5y ago
  I think I largely understand the implications of the garden I chose, and I doubt there will be much anguish among my less technical family/friends about their loss when they fully grasp that they will never be able to run a DOS emulator on their iPhones.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    The only reason we're talking about something as obscure as DOS is because it wasn't threatening. Now that people have raised awareness of the inconstency they're blocking it, like many other general purpose emulators.
- colonwqbang 5y ago
  What I don't understand is why so many devs choose to accept Apple's rules. These devs know full well that they will likely be f***** over like this in the end. Yet they still give Apple their business.
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    Because people use iOS devices, and they want these apps.
  - handrous 5y ago
    Much higher rate of sales (apps and IAP) and subscriptions than Android. Not sure how the ad market looks (I've not worked on ad-supported apps) but wouldn't be surprised if those—at least in some categories—also pay so much higher that they're more lucrative on iOS, too, despite the smaller user-base.
swiley 5y ago
Nope. Some of them are children. Some need or prefer Apple's locked in stuff (iMessage.) Not to mention Android is a slow burning trash fire. I've seen so many ignorant comments like this about iOS lately I'm on the fence about deleting my HN account. I think I'd be happier, and all the people here who keep defending Apple's abuse would be happier.
- emteycz 5y ago
  Android is a perfectly usable platform. Your comment is just as ignorant as these you criticize.
  - swiley 5y ago
    I never said it was unusable. MSDOS is also a perfectly usable platform full of bad ideas and ridiculous hacks.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Don't be ridicululous.

amelius 5y ago

Great hackers know when to give up.

meibo 5y ago

You can sign 7 apps a week for your own device with the tethered non-dev Apple ID. The certificates expire a week after, so you need to resign those 7 apps every week or they will stop working. All of the "alternative" stores and distribution methods work with this mechanism, there is no better way and it is completely at Apple's whims. Really, most interested users probably gave up at this point, looking at the decaying Jailbreak ecosystem.

kjaleshire 5y ago
You can only have 3 apps + 3 extensions installed on one device simultaneously, however.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

They bow to the will of the true owners of the device they are renting.

arthurcolle 5y ago

use Prompt or another mosh terminal emulator and ssh into wherever you want

danShumway 5y ago
For a DOS emulator? Does Prompt stream graphics? Even just for coding, that sounds awful to me. iOS users bought a mobile device, and particularly if they're on an iPad Pro, a mobile device with a really good processor. For me, part of that would be being able to treat it like a mobile device, that it should keep working if I drive through a tunnel, that I should be able to use it on the go. Hard for me to wrap my head around people being satisfied with "ignore that you have a well-built device with interesting sensors in front of you, and instead just use it as a thin client to another functioning computer." There are cheaper thin clients out there than an iOS device if someone is OK ignoring their native hardware, doing all of their programming through a terminal, and having functionality break if their device goes offline.
- arthurcolle 5y ago
  I agree with you 100% - the situation sucks and I hope that these congressional hearings related to Apple being uncompetitive result in them being forced to allow multiple app stores and especially allow you to use a... mobile computing device for.... mobile computing. But I'm not optimistic. Sent from my iPhone

Vanit 5y ago

The latter as you said, compile it yourself.

marinhero 5y ago
Yes, like this https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/

heavyset_go 5y ago

They rationalize no longer being able to do something they used to be able to do, for no real practical or technical reason, as actually being a good thing.

jsbdk 5y ago
I don't rationalise it as a good thing. I think there are many things to consider when buying a phone and this is just one of them. Lately Apple started mandating that apps like telegram or discord must make it impossible for iPhone users to see nsfw content, which has tipped the balance towards android for me. For the first time in many years I'm using an Android phone. But as I said, one of all the factors to consider.
- ZekeSulastin 5y ago
  It’s a bit more nuanced than that - NSFW content can still be shown but the app needs to express a 17+ age rating on the App Store. That’s why apps like the Reddit client Apollo[1] and Google Chrome[2] are 17+. [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apollo-for-reddit/id979274575 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apollo-for-reddit/id979274575 [2] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/google-chrome/id535886823 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/google-chrome/id535886823
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    They also cannot show a switch to allow viewing NSFW content inside the app, similarly to how apps can't mention other payment methods in-app.
mhh__ 5y ago
Hence the newspeak of "sideloading" being accepted as opposed to recognizing it as a frankly outrageous and capricious policy designed to encourage an unknowing and comatose userbase.

marinhero 5y ago

Gave up. I was wishing WWDC21 bring something like this due the M1 iPads but all I got was a refresh on Playgrounds... It's frustrating but I'm still inside the garden, and getting more tired by the day.

wodenokoto 5y ago

I don't do anything. It's a phone, not a PC. I got an iPhone because it does what it does well, and doesn't do other things at all. iPhones are slick, costly and secure, at the cost of not being malleable. It's a trade-off I made at purchase time and I know most users of both iPhone and Android never considered that tradeoff.

marinhero 5y ago
I partially agree with you but I think the iPad breaks this rationale. They argue it's a computer so why won't they let it be?
- wodenokoto 5y ago
  Yeah, calling the iPad a PC is very short sighted by Apple. Where is the next generation of developers going to come from, if they grow up on iPads? But I feel the same towards Apples stance on server hardware, which they discontinued over a decade ago: Even if servers don't make a sizeable profit on their own, they help ensure that developers can build large scale stuff inside the apple ecosystem. Yet, that hasn't really been the hindrance I feel it ought to have been.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    > Yeah, calling the iPad a PC is very short sighted by Apple. It's only shortsighted because they lock it down. It's got the same M1 hardware (if slightly less powerfull IIRC), and you can get an official keyboard+trackpad (and many third party ones), so the only thing that really keeps it from being a PC is their software installation policy that locks what can be run.[1] 1: Well, and also their policy of only allowing iOS to run on the hardware. This would be less of an issue if you could throw Linux, or even just Android on them. I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to ship an M1 ARM version of windows if they had hardware that would allow it to run.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  > Executing code [...] allows for downloading of content without licensing.

prirai 5y ago

Termux

dvhh 5y ago
Apparently they also are suffering from limitations with latest andoid version

Laforet 5y ago

Pretty much what you have just described, one needs to pay for the yearly premium of the iOS developer programme in order to run custom code on your own device. Bear in mind that iOS apps are compiled in Xcode so one also needs to own hardware that runs OSX. There are also people offering to sign you app with an enterprise certificate for a fee in the more dodgy corners of the internet but Apple is known to crack down on those once in a while as this obviously goes outside their ToS.

bri3d 5y ago

You can sideload the app yourself - but the account can only have 3 devices, and the app expires and stops running weekly for a free account or every 90 days (iirc - it's been awhile since I entered this particular dumpster fire) for a paid account. This is to prevent you as a developer from using your provisioning profile to backdoor-distribute software to end-users. The largest loophole still is probably Enterprise Distribution, which allows high-limits (long time, many devices) signing associated with an Enterprise account.

Shank 5y ago
It’s a year for a paid account, 90 days through TestFlight.

JonathonW 5y ago

If the app's open-source, you can build it yourself, with restrictions on how long the app will function on your device before you have to reinstall it (one year IIRC for paid developer accounts, but only 7 days if you're not enrolled in the paid program). If the app isn't open-source, you don't have any great options. Hypothetically, compiled apps from other developers can be re-signed just like apps you build yourself (see AltStore [1], which uses this technique), but those apps are still time-bombed and have to be periodically refreshed. The barrier to entry means you don't see a ton of apps around that do this; if something can't be compliant with App Store rules, it generally doesn't get made on iOS. (There's also jailbreaking, and there used to be a decently-large community of developers building applications and tweaks for jailbroken iOS devices. That's gotten smaller both as Apple's made jailbreaking more difficult to maintain, and as new features in iOS have made much of the functionality people used to jailbreak for redundant.) [1] https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/

badkitty99 5y ago
Jailbreaking is the only way to really use an app that isn’t allowed. And it’s a royal pain in the ass to keep up with the updates, not suited for regular users at all. But it’s still kicking alive and well today

jdavis703 5y ago

I've had a couple of apps disappear (one I know Apple removed, the others I think just suffered from bit rot). I guess it's the same as if my grocery store stops stocking some brand I buy. I'm bummed about it, but life goes on.

DCKing 5y ago

It is possible to sideload apps on iOS, it just requires jumping through hoops that you don’t have on Android. Apple allows sideloading of apps signed by the same Apple account that you’re signed into on your iDevice. Since this is really intended to make developing iOS apps more accessible, it requires resigning or rebuilding apps. Since iDOS is open source, that should be no problem here - you can compile and install your own copy, likely just by loading the upstream project in Xcode and deploying it your iDevice like app developers do. A usability problem is that apps installed this way are only runnable for a week [0], at which point the signature must be refreshed or iOS will refuse to open the app. AltStore [1] is a project that streamlines this ordeal as much as possible. It’s an alternate app store that allows you to install a bunch of open source apps not allowed in the app store (e.g. apps using permissions that would be rejected, or game console emulators). It also comes with a server component that uses Apple’s frameworks on Mac/Windows to refresh those apps’ validity on iDevices on the same network. If you regularly connect your iDevice to a network with an AltServer of your own, the apps should continue to work. It’s certainly not pretty, and very far removed from fare more open Android devices, but workarounds to run your own software on iDevices do exist. There’s an entire subreddit, r/sideloaded, dedicated to this apparently mostly for piracy purposes. [0]: Unless you pay for the Apple Developer Program, which has much longer limits. This limit is for free accounts. [1]: https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/

saurik 5y ago
An additional limitation is that you can only have three such applications installed at a time. You also aren't going to be able to get access to functionality like push notifications (which might be obvious) or network extensions (which might not be: you have to have a paid developer account to develop/install a custom VPN for iOS; I find this limitation particularly frustrating, as it seems to mostly serve the purpose of helping authoritarian governments, and it isn't like Android has such a restriction so we know it isn't "par for the course": they are going above and beyond here).

grishka 5y ago

iOS requires apps to be signed with a certificate that chains to an Apple root of trust. The only way around this is jailbreak. IMO this shouldn't be legal.

tinus_hn 5y ago

The target audience for iOS devices does not care about running dos emulators with their custom binaries. Believe it or not, many people are okay with boundaries, especially when the promised and mostly achieved return is a reasonably stable and secure experience.