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Nothing here explains how consciousness arises out of particular arrangement of atoms in the human brain. Many convoluted explanations can be done away with if

Nothing here explains how consciousness arises out of particular arrangement of atoms in the human brain. Many convoluted explanations can be done away with if we consider that consciousness arises outside the brain and the brain is a tuned receiver. Perhaps this field of consciousness exists but we haven't developed a way to detect, test or measure it.

michaelmrose 5y ago
If someone said that the all these convoluted explanations go can be done away with if we consider that circulation arises outside the heart and the heart is a tuned receiver for a circulation field you'd laugh them out of the room. Why is consciousness different than circulation? As an aside if you were puzzling over how a cpu works understanding the electromagnetic field works is indeed useful but it in no way obviates the need to understand the cpu in terms of the elements in front of your face because the function of the cpu is absolutely a function of those elements.
- disgruntledphd2 5y ago
  Because each of us have an interior experience of consciousness which is quite different from the external world. I think that the brain is definitely associated with consciousness but we have literally no useful path from nerve impulses to the feeling of love.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    If you were exploring how a new CPU works would you assume any fields were generated by the obvious input power provided by a plug leading to the wall or would you start with the hypothesis that despite having an obvious way to conduct electricity and connection to a source of same it was likely the result of a heretofore unknown field of low energy particles that have somehow not be discovered by physicists despite centuries of looking. If you gave someone who understood electricity but not computation a CPU they wouldn't be able to explain how it works. That wouldn't provide a good reason to say that computation must be the result of something other than electricity.
    - goatlover 5y ago
      > If you gave someone who understood electricity but not computation a CPU they wouldn't be able to explain how it works. That wouldn't provide a good reason to say that computation must be the result of something other than electricity. It would be a good reason to suppose that computation was something added culturally to understanding the CPU (as part of constructing a CPU), since physics alone doesn't explain it. The computation is something in addition to the physics. It's cultural (the meaning of the computation in terms of bit patterns, manipulations and input/outputs) as well as electrical. Otherwise, it's just moving electricity around and producing heat. http://www.jaronlanier.com/zombie.html http://www.jaronlanier.com/zombie.html
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
        Computation is fully explicable as an abstraction over moving electricity around and producing heat. Without a specific theory of computation understanding the CPU isn't impossible but it may prove intractable in the same fashion as its very difficult but not impossible to understand chemistry solely in terms of physics. What is missing would not be a magical compute field but the necessary abstractions.
- okareaman 5y ago
  We can explain circulation in terms of physics. We can't explain consciousness in terms of physics. Even a cursory search will turn up scores of interesting articles about physics and the new science of consciousness as the next frontier. Another cursory search will turn up several very interesting quotes from famous and highly regarded physicists on the subject such as these: “My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.” ― Nikola Tesla I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as a derivative of consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing postulates consciousness. -- Max Planck https://uncommondescent.com/physics/what-great-physicists-have-said-about-immateriality-and-consciousness/ https://uncommondescent.com/physics/what-great-physicists-ha... I heard an interesting discussion once when it was said that the Catholic church allowed science to proceed as long as it stay out of the "spirit" realm and explored the material realm and we have been stuck in that mode ever since.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    We can't explain consciousness in terms of physics YET. The entirety of human history is a march in which light has slowly pushed back darkness. If you haven't proved something unknownable and assert that it is your reader should rightly be incredulous. There is no spirit realm for science to explore merely concepts that the ignorant suppose exist within such shadowed places.
    - okareaman 5y ago
      It's your choice to be dismissive and treat it like astrology. I don't care. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer but most likely a derivative quote from William Paley.
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
jtsiskin 5y ago
Isn’t that a far more convoluted explanation, with even less understanding behind it? Now we still need all the explanation for how consciousness arises, but now how it arises from some unknown place outside the brain. And then we need an explanation for how our brain somehow is a receiver of something from somewhere?

michaelmrose 5y ago

If someone said that the all these convoluted explanations go can be done away with if we consider that circulation arises outside the heart and the heart is a tuned receiver for a circulation field you'd laugh them out of the room. Why is consciousness different than circulation? As an aside if you were puzzling over how a cpu works understanding the electromagnetic field works is indeed useful but it in no way obviates the need to understand the cpu in terms of the elements in front of your face because the function of the cpu is absolutely a function of those elements.

disgruntledphd2 5y ago
Because each of us have an interior experience of consciousness which is quite different from the external world. I think that the brain is definitely associated with consciousness but we have literally no useful path from nerve impulses to the feeling of love.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  If you were exploring how a new CPU works would you assume any fields were generated by the obvious input power provided by a plug leading to the wall or would you start with the hypothesis that despite having an obvious way to conduct electricity and connection to a source of same it was likely the result of a heretofore unknown field of low energy particles that have somehow not be discovered by physicists despite centuries of looking. If you gave someone who understood electricity but not computation a CPU they wouldn't be able to explain how it works. That wouldn't provide a good reason to say that computation must be the result of something other than electricity.
  - goatlover 5y ago
    > If you gave someone who understood electricity but not computation a CPU they wouldn't be able to explain how it works. That wouldn't provide a good reason to say that computation must be the result of something other than electricity. It would be a good reason to suppose that computation was something added culturally to understanding the CPU (as part of constructing a CPU), since physics alone doesn't explain it. The computation is something in addition to the physics. It's cultural (the meaning of the computation in terms of bit patterns, manipulations and input/outputs) as well as electrical. Otherwise, it's just moving electricity around and producing heat. http://www.jaronlanier.com/zombie.html http://www.jaronlanier.com/zombie.html
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      Computation is fully explicable as an abstraction over moving electricity around and producing heat. Without a specific theory of computation understanding the CPU isn't impossible but it may prove intractable in the same fashion as its very difficult but not impossible to understand chemistry solely in terms of physics. What is missing would not be a magical compute field but the necessary abstractions.
okareaman 5y ago
We can explain circulation in terms of physics. We can't explain consciousness in terms of physics. Even a cursory search will turn up scores of interesting articles about physics and the new science of consciousness as the next frontier. Another cursory search will turn up several very interesting quotes from famous and highly regarded physicists on the subject such as these: “My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.” ― Nikola Tesla I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as a derivative of consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing postulates consciousness. -- Max Planck https://uncommondescent.com/physics/what-great-physicists-have-said-about-immateriality-and-consciousness/ https://uncommondescent.com/physics/what-great-physicists-ha... I heard an interesting discussion once when it was said that the Catholic church allowed science to proceed as long as it stay out of the "spirit" realm and explored the material realm and we have been stuck in that mode ever since.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  We can't explain consciousness in terms of physics YET. The entirety of human history is a march in which light has slowly pushed back darkness. If you haven't proved something unknownable and assert that it is your reader should rightly be incredulous. There is no spirit realm for science to explore merely concepts that the ignorant suppose exist within such shadowed places.
  - okareaman 5y ago
    It's your choice to be dismissive and treat it like astrology. I don't care. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer but most likely a derivative quote from William Paley.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago

jtsiskin 5y ago

Isn’t that a far more convoluted explanation, with even less understanding behind it? Now we still need all the explanation for how consciousness arises, but now how it arises from some unknown place outside the brain. And then we need an explanation for how our brain somehow is a receiver of something from somewhere?