14 ms·

>> In 1995, 2% of schizophrenia diagnoses in the country were associated with cannabis use disorder. In 2000, it increased to around 4%. Since 2010, that figure

by macksd 5y ago

>> In 1995, 2% of schizophrenia diagnoses in the country were associated with cannabis use disorder. In 2000, it increased to around 4%. Since 2010, that figure increased to 8%, the study found. Worded that way, causation isn't the first thing this suggests to me. If percentage of cases associated with marijuana rise, it could also be that a larger percentage of the population is smoking and admitting to smoking marijuana regularly. If cases themselves rise, it could also be increases in the percentage of cases that actually get diagnosed, etc. It could very well be that marijuana puts you at higher risk of schizophrenia - I certainly have an acquaintance in mind for whom recreational drug usage seems to have led them to a paranoid and narcissistic personality described here in other comments - but the connection in this article feels weak. Certainly weaker than the connection we see between marijuana law enforcement and the negative fallout of that.

qayxc 5y ago
I agree, there's just too many variables here. The drug itself also changed over the years with current breeds having way more active ingredients than the ones used decades ago.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- samatman 5y ago
  This part is easy to overstate. It's mostly true for the United States, although even back in the day there were strains (Maui was famous for this) which had nice crystals and were grown without males around to spoil the product. In Europe, hashish was the normal form of cannabis, and it's hard to make hash more potent than it already is. It varies in quality and strength like any natural product, but over a range that is higher than a flower can achieve, pretty much by definition. Hard-core concentrates and pure THC products are new, sure, but hashish gets you most of the way there.
  - bjourne 5y ago
    According to studies, cannabis potency has indeed increasedi n Europe in the last few decades. See An overview of cannabis potency in Europe (https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/insights/cannabis-potency_en https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/insights/cannabis-...) and Increasing potency and price of cannabis in Europe, 2006–16 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.14525 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.14525). From the abstract of the latter study: "Resin potency increased from a mean [95% confidence interval (CI)] of 8.14% THC (6.89, 9.49) in 2006 to 17.22 (15.23, 19.25) in 2016. Resin price increased from 8.21 euros/g (7.54, 8.97) to 12.27 (10.62, 14.16). Resin increased in value, from 11.00 mg THC per euro (8.60, 13.62) to 16.39 (13.68, 19.05). Quadratic time trends for resin potency and value indicated minimal change from 2006 to 2011, followed by marked increases from 2011 to 2016. Herbal cannabis potency increased from 5.00% THC (3.91, 6.23) to 10.22 (9.01, 11.47). Herbal price increased from 7.36 euros/g (6.22, 8.53) to 12.22 (10.59, 14.03). The value of herbal cannabis did not change from 12.65 mg of THC per euro (10.18, 15.34) to 12.72 (10.73, 14.73). All price trends persisted after adjusting for inflation. Conclusions European cannabis resin and herbal cannabis increased in potency and price from 2006 to 2016. Cannabis resin (but not herbal cannabis) increased in the quantity of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol per euro spent. Marked increases in resin potency and value from 2011 to 2016 are consistent with the emergence of new resin production techniques in European and neighbouring drug markets." Certainly, the potency is much higher than it was in the 1960's and 1970's.
    - asdff 5y ago
      Anecdotally, I've heard in the 60s and 70s generally people would just smoke a lot more weed in a single sitting than today. Several joints to a person of harsh brick weed vs. half of one with decent modern weed, for example.
      - subpixel 5y ago
        Anecdotally, half a joint of weed purchased from a legal, recreational shop is enough to get a dozen people stoned into the ground, unless they are regular users of the stuff.
tomphoolery 5y ago
To me it's about as strong as the correlation between schizophrenia and _any_ use of psychedelics. THC's effects have more in common with a psychedelic than they do an analgesic or stimulant. It's not a body drug, even if it sometimes makes you feel that way. If we legalized psilocybin nationwide, I would bet money that these kinds of studies would show "correlations" in schizophrenia use among those who have taken mushrooms as well. And they would probably be the similar, if not follow the same exact curve, as what we see for MJ.
- samatman 5y ago
  Yes indeed. I used to think cannabis was relaxing. Then I started wearing a watch which doubles as a heart-rate monitor.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    To be fair, that could be just normal paranoia from smoking too much, or perhaps your body doesn't agree with that strain. I have what's called a paradoxical reaction to whatever they use to put you under anesthesia. I wake up in a rage, they have to take me out very slowly. I have a friend like this with marijuana. She finds indicas make her euphoric and energized and creative, when she should be couch-locked with a body high. Until she swapped types she kept getting super anxious and it led her to bad trips. But the benefits outweighed the downsides for her (she was able to eat and sleep normally). Also- coughing (which you almost certainly will), will raise your heart rate. So how do we know what is a bad effect of the plant in general? This is worrying to me, and as a marijuana smoker I would really love more studies to be done on it.
    - samatman 5y ago
      Well, no. So there are the occasional 140-160 BPM panic attacks now, so I approach the substance with caution and respect. But that's quite distinct from going from a resting rate of, say, 80 (about my serum maximum of caffeine rate) to a nice 100, while feeling great and getting a bunch of stuff done around the house. Euphoria and relaxation aren't identical concepts...
heavyset_go 5y ago
> Worded that way, causation isn't the first thing this suggests to me. If percentage of cases associated with marijuana rise, it could also be that a larger percentage of the population is smoking and admitting to smoking marijuana regularly. If cases themselves rise, it could also be increases in the percentage of cases that actually get diagnosed, etc. I think this is a good explanation. It's also important to acknowledge that norms around marijuana use and the perception of schizophrenia and its symptoms have changed drastically in the last 25 years. So have schizophrenia treatments. Older neuroleptics have severe side effects that cause permanent Parkinson's-like movement disorders and are responsible for lowering patients' life expectancies. It wasn't until the mid-to-late 1990's that the atypical antipsychotics were approved by the FDA, which had significantly less side effects than older drugs. And then it wasn't until the mid-to-late 2000's that those drugs had affordable generics. Several new antipsychotics were approved in the 2000's that have less side effects, as well.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  I should also note that mental healthcare, in the past, was something insurance companies would fight their policyholders over, and many policies didn't cover it at all. The ACA and earlier legislation are responsible for increasing access to mental healthcare[1] for Americans, as they forced insurers to cover it. So in the past, if you couldn't see a doctor, you couldn't get a schizophrenia diagnosis even if you had it. [1] https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2020/aca-10-how-has-it-impacted-mental-health-care https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2020/aca-10-how-has-it...
wutbrodo 5y ago
Yea, this is a very bizarre framing. I understand that researchers hypothesize that a Marijuana-driven causal link is possible, but theres a well-established, strong causal effect in the other direction that first needs to be controlled for. In that light, the statistic is framed very dishonestly in the article. (Though perhaps dishonesty isn't the correct word to use here: I don't have a high prior on the journalist even understanding this complaint)
- mnowicki 5y ago
  I have literally seen an article before that said prodromal(pre/early onset) schizophrenia leads to Marijuana use, and I remember wondering at the time how they knew which way the causation went. I'm also not sure if it's journalists wanting to push one narrative over the other, or just a lack of understanding.
  - wutbrodo 5y ago
    I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was both. What's dishonest/incompetent is the framing of changes like the statistic as if the causal direction is clear, without addressing the (to my mind more plausible) opposite causal direction. Cigarette smoking also has a heavy association with schizophrenia, but the biases we have about it don't lend themselves to the kind of sloppy causality that you see with marijuana. I know you can legitimize biases by calling them priors, but then you need to show your work: those priors themselves should be based in harder data and explicitly referenced. Otherwise, sloppy science (and reporting) become indistinguishable from considered priors.
wydfre 5y ago
Could you go into detail about "paranoid and narcissistic personality" specifically the narcissistic personality - I have not heard of that.
- macksd 5y ago
  Narcissism probably isn't the right word for me to be using here. It was on my mind because of this comment, where there happens to be more discussion of it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27920152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27920152. And it happened to fit the case I was thinking of at the time. But it probably shouldn't be part of my original comment. Specifically what I'm referring to is an integral part of paranoia: someone thinking that, while long-term unemployed and living with their parents in their 40s, they are so "in the loop" as to be aware of conspiracies and such a threat to those conspiracies that they're a target. I have a hard time not equating that attitude with a little bit of narcissism, though again - probably not the right word to have used when discussing specific disorders.
  - meowface 5y ago
    This is known as "delusion of reference" and is common during states of psychosis or mania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideas_and_delusions_of_reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideas_and_delusions_of_referen... >It is "the notion that everything one perceives in the world relates to one's own destiny", usually in a negative and hostile manner.
- jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
  I would imagine this is not a medical assessment but a more liberal, laymen use of the words paranoid and narcissistic. After all, MJ does alter the mind and broadens the worldview so to say, which could be called paranoid through a certain lens, and also dulls the senses and makes more tolerant for micro signs and non-verbal communication, which could be called, with some exaggeration, more narcisstic.
seph-reed 5y ago
I get schizophrenia from smoking pot. But I also know people who get it who've never been pot heads. Something about THC is at the center of this. And also something about age. I used to be able to smoke as much as I wanted and just enjoy it, then one day it started making me crazy.. and I kept smoking for a few years and truly lost my mind. I've heard this story countless times... something (usually around age 20) just snaps, and suddenly THC == paranoia.
- tartoran 5y ago
  Did your symptoms disappear when you stopped using it?
  - seph-reed 5y ago
    It took a while, but yes. And they come back if I smoke again.
- Bombthecat 5y ago
  I know someone who went through the same thing... Now alcoholic and homeless.. Also around 20...
- hirako2000 5y ago
  Anecdotal. Causation isn't that simple to establish. What drives people to smoke pot may very well be a factor that Will lead to paranoia or other form of mental instability. Also to note, psycho active drugs are as they are called: psycho active. With prolonged use, tolerance increase, with further use some imbalance occurs especially when not under the influence of that substance. Re establishing that balance takes time. We are very poorly educated when it comes to mental stability, and pharmaceutical treatment is the de facto answer by medical corps. I do hope you get better, just don't forget substance use has an impact on the brain subtle chemistry, that's in a way what makes them attractive in the first place, and this impact doesn't disappear after a day like a hangover. Take some time off stimilant and psychedelics, you will slowly regain your normal self.
- KittenInABox 5y ago
SquishyPanda23 5y ago
> It could very well be that marijuana puts you at higher risk of schizophrenia More likely, marijuana use accelerates the development of schizophrenia among people already at risk. > it could also be increases in the percentage of cases that actually get diagnosed, etc. This is generally a valid stock response to these sorts of studies. But it strikes me as a bit unlikely that there was previously a large amount of undiagnosed schizophrenia. (Unless we have broadened the definition recently).
- mnowicki 5y ago
  also it's 2% "of diagnosis" connected to marijuana use. So the difference would be if marijuana use is more commonly known/reported, regardless of whether they have 100 or 10000 diagnosis
- steego 5y ago
  I think the increase in cases is more likely to be explained by a number of factors: 1. THC concentrations have increased which usually means there is less CBD. 2. Legalization probably increased casual use. 3. People who suffer from schizophrenia are simply more likely to be diagnosed for whatever reason. The sum of these three things could easily account for a significant increase in diagnosis. Sometimes increases in diagnosis correlate with better detection. Sometimes they correlate with incentives to diagnose people. I’m not even suggesting a nefarious connection. Sometimes incentives with the best intentions can have a big impact.
  - Weebs 5y ago
    The high THC and lack of CBD in today's strains is concerning (to me) honestly. I'm worried that a lot of the data we've seen in the past about chronic cannabis use being relatively safe may not apply when THC/CBD ratios approach 50:1, since CBD and other cannabinoids counter act some of THCs effects.
    - jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
      Criminalizing is a big part of this problem. With "medical" weed you can carefully chose a fitting strain just to your liking and condition, like indica for calming and sativa for inspiring effect, in hundreds of nuances even. But no. Too much money to be made for some groups from this prohibition. Can't have that, denied.
mthoms 5y ago
Anecdote: My half-sister is a diagnosed schizophrenic and life-long weed smoker. It seems to me (and her doctors agree) that the two are absolutely related. She was likely predisposed to schizophrenia (because of her father - which we don't share) but I often wonder if it would have progressed the way it did absent the heavy smoking. I say this also as a pot smoker myself (but only lightly in the past decade or so). I have nothing against it, and used to scoff at those who were against it. Now... I'm absolutely convinced that marijuana use can have absolutely catastrophic mental health implications for some people. I'm also convinced it can help people with certain conditions. At any rate, it's much less benign than I long thought.
- Loic 5y ago
  I am sorry to say that you are most likely right. My father is[0] a psychiatrist in big psychiatric hospital in France (1500 beds, only psychiatry, nothing else) and he told me again and again that he was against the legalisation of marijuana because of this. The problem is that once you trigger schizophrenia you need to live with it, all your life... Note that he told me so, even if his work during the last 15 years was mainly with the very poor people or refugees without health insurance, the ones suffering a lot from the drug dealers and all the associated black market, prostitution and abuse against minorities, women and kids. We had lively discussion because I consider that legalizing drugs would reduce violence, gangs, etc. but it is hard to argue against somebody having clear first hand experience with both sides of the problem. [0]: was in fact, he retired 2 weeks ago.
  - dmos62 5y ago
    Same experience with a (art) therapist in a mental hospital (less than 1500 beds). Very persistent in asserting that weed causes some people to end up there. I don't think it's a good argument against legalization. We don't ban alcohol, because there are alcoholics. I think it would be smarter to regulate the recreational drug industry and use its taxes to fund relevant education, research and mental health programmes.
    - Weebs 5y ago
rhizome 5y ago
When this kind of thing has come up before ("pot causes mental illness"), IIRC it turns out more that people with schizoid disorders are self-medicating with pot before getting diagnosed, rather than having taken harder drugs, alcohol, etc. The classic reversed-arrow of causation.
- oceanghost 5y ago
  This is the correct answer here in the same way that the prevalence of ADHD is about 2x as likely in the population of meth addicts as the general population.
- cornel_io 5y ago
  Worse, the "classic" studies that claim to show the connection between use and schizoid disorders claim to adjust for this, but use a method that is completely wrong, and would be expected to show the same effect for any disease where diagnosis reliability at the start is less than 100% I don't remember the exact details anymore, but more or less they claim to address causation by 1) starting with a non-schizophrenic population, 2) segmenting by marijuana use, and 3) evaluating schizophrenic status N years later. The theory is that by limiting 1) to non-schizophrenics, they've factored out the possibility that schizophrenia drives drug use rather than the other way around. Of course, most schizophrenics are not actually diagnosed until waaaay past the point where they are showing symptoms, and if you've ever known a schizophrenic who was diagnosed in college, for instance, you know that that diagnosis usually comes at the end of a long chain of subtle and not so subtle mental issues, shrink appointments, and life problems that start much earlier but don't present as full blown schizophrenia. So the whole supposed filter in 1) is complete trash, and they're probably including a lot of people who are already symptomatic, just not to a clinically diagnosable degree.
- southeastern 5y ago
  That could be a part of it, but there is a documented effect of marijuana "triggering" mental illness in those who are susceptible to mental illness. For a certain portion of the population marijuana use will directly lead to the onset of mental illness
bombadilo 5y ago
Sorry, but the suggestion that marijuanna use leads to narcissistic personality disorder is absurd.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  There is this: "Cannabis use is associated with 2–4 times the likelihood of developing psychosis in healthy individuals: That sure seems causative. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7255842/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7255842/
HillRat 5y ago
The study is also highly sensitive to the way drug use disorders are classified by behavioral health professionals, particularly due to the changing criteria of various DSM editions. I’d want to look at the underlying dataset to see if they’ve properly accounted for exogenous effects like that.
whall6 5y ago
Either way, it’s not really a risk I want to take
Agenttin 5y ago
There's a relationship between smoking cigarettes and schizophrenia too. I think this may be a case of people trying to self medicate for their conditions. > "There has been emerging evidence of an association between tobacco smoking and schizophrenia spectrum disorders (SSD). Two meta-analyses have reported that people who smoke tobacco have an ~2-fold increased risk of incident schizophrenia or psychosis, even after adjusting for confounding factors." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6255982/#:~:text=There%20has%20been%20emerging%20evidence,after%20adjusting%20for%20confounding%20factors https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6255982/#:~:tex....
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  I agree 100%, I believe schizophrenics with symptoms seek out marijuana, just like they do with tobacco.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
raxxorrax 5y ago
Additionally if you use these recreational drugs, you are constantly hiding from law enforcement or are at least weary of it. You also try to hide it and it become a permanent secret you carry around. I think this could certainly influence paranoia. To my knowledge schizophrenia is hearing voices and similar hallucinations, which are beyond trust issues. But from experience with weed smokers, I certainly have the impression that there might be some truth to the story.

by macksd 5y ago

qayxc 5y ago

I agree, there's just too many variables here. The drug itself also changed over the years with current breeds having way more active ingredients than the ones used decades ago.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
samatman 5y ago
This part is easy to overstate. It's mostly true for the United States, although even back in the day there were strains (Maui was famous for this) which had nice crystals and were grown without males around to spoil the product. In Europe, hashish was the normal form of cannabis, and it's hard to make hash more potent than it already is. It varies in quality and strength like any natural product, but over a range that is higher than a flower can achieve, pretty much by definition. Hard-core concentrates and pure THC products are new, sure, but hashish gets you most of the way there.
- bjourne 5y ago
  According to studies, cannabis potency has indeed increasedi n Europe in the last few decades. See An overview of cannabis potency in Europe (https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/insights/cannabis-potency_en https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/insights/cannabis-...) and Increasing potency and price of cannabis in Europe, 2006–16 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.14525 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.14525). From the abstract of the latter study: "Resin potency increased from a mean [95% confidence interval (CI)] of 8.14% THC (6.89, 9.49) in 2006 to 17.22 (15.23, 19.25) in 2016. Resin price increased from 8.21 euros/g (7.54, 8.97) to 12.27 (10.62, 14.16). Resin increased in value, from 11.00 mg THC per euro (8.60, 13.62) to 16.39 (13.68, 19.05). Quadratic time trends for resin potency and value indicated minimal change from 2006 to 2011, followed by marked increases from 2011 to 2016. Herbal cannabis potency increased from 5.00% THC (3.91, 6.23) to 10.22 (9.01, 11.47). Herbal price increased from 7.36 euros/g (6.22, 8.53) to 12.22 (10.59, 14.03). The value of herbal cannabis did not change from 12.65 mg of THC per euro (10.18, 15.34) to 12.72 (10.73, 14.73). All price trends persisted after adjusting for inflation. Conclusions European cannabis resin and herbal cannabis increased in potency and price from 2006 to 2016. Cannabis resin (but not herbal cannabis) increased in the quantity of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol per euro spent. Marked increases in resin potency and value from 2011 to 2016 are consistent with the emergence of new resin production techniques in European and neighbouring drug markets." Certainly, the potency is much higher than it was in the 1960's and 1970's.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Anecdotally, I've heard in the 60s and 70s generally people would just smoke a lot more weed in a single sitting than today. Several joints to a person of harsh brick weed vs. half of one with decent modern weed, for example.
    - subpixel 5y ago
      Anecdotally, half a joint of weed purchased from a legal, recreational shop is enough to get a dozen people stoned into the ground, unless they are regular users of the stuff.

tomphoolery 5y ago

To me it's about as strong as the correlation between schizophrenia and _any_ use of psychedelics. THC's effects have more in common with a psychedelic than they do an analgesic or stimulant. It's not a body drug, even if it sometimes makes you feel that way. If we legalized psilocybin nationwide, I would bet money that these kinds of studies would show "correlations" in schizophrenia use among those who have taken mushrooms as well. And they would probably be the similar, if not follow the same exact curve, as what we see for MJ.

samatman 5y ago
Yes indeed. I used to think cannabis was relaxing. Then I started wearing a watch which doubles as a heart-rate monitor.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  To be fair, that could be just normal paranoia from smoking too much, or perhaps your body doesn't agree with that strain. I have what's called a paradoxical reaction to whatever they use to put you under anesthesia. I wake up in a rage, they have to take me out very slowly. I have a friend like this with marijuana. She finds indicas make her euphoric and energized and creative, when she should be couch-locked with a body high. Until she swapped types she kept getting super anxious and it led her to bad trips. But the benefits outweighed the downsides for her (she was able to eat and sleep normally). Also- coughing (which you almost certainly will), will raise your heart rate. So how do we know what is a bad effect of the plant in general? This is worrying to me, and as a marijuana smoker I would really love more studies to be done on it.
  - samatman 5y ago
    Well, no. So there are the occasional 140-160 BPM panic attacks now, so I approach the substance with caution and respect. But that's quite distinct from going from a resting rate of, say, 80 (about my serum maximum of caffeine rate) to a nice 100, while feeling great and getting a bunch of stuff done around the house. Euphoria and relaxation aren't identical concepts...

heavyset_go 5y ago

> Worded that way, causation isn't the first thing this suggests to me. If percentage of cases associated with marijuana rise, it could also be that a larger percentage of the population is smoking and admitting to smoking marijuana regularly. If cases themselves rise, it could also be increases in the percentage of cases that actually get diagnosed, etc. I think this is a good explanation. It's also important to acknowledge that norms around marijuana use and the perception of schizophrenia and its symptoms have changed drastically in the last 25 years. So have schizophrenia treatments. Older neuroleptics have severe side effects that cause permanent Parkinson's-like movement disorders and are responsible for lowering patients' life expectancies. It wasn't until the mid-to-late 1990's that the atypical antipsychotics were approved by the FDA, which had significantly less side effects than older drugs. And then it wasn't until the mid-to-late 2000's that those drugs had affordable generics. Several new antipsychotics were approved in the 2000's that have less side effects, as well.

heavyset_go 5y ago
I should also note that mental healthcare, in the past, was something insurance companies would fight their policyholders over, and many policies didn't cover it at all. The ACA and earlier legislation are responsible for increasing access to mental healthcare[1] for Americans, as they forced insurers to cover it. So in the past, if you couldn't see a doctor, you couldn't get a schizophrenia diagnosis even if you had it. [1] https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2020/aca-10-how-has-it-impacted-mental-health-care https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2020/aca-10-how-has-it...

wutbrodo 5y ago

Yea, this is a very bizarre framing. I understand that researchers hypothesize that a Marijuana-driven causal link is possible, but theres a well-established, strong causal effect in the other direction that first needs to be controlled for. In that light, the statistic is framed very dishonestly in the article. (Though perhaps dishonesty isn't the correct word to use here: I don't have a high prior on the journalist even understanding this complaint)

mnowicki 5y ago
I have literally seen an article before that said prodromal(pre/early onset) schizophrenia leads to Marijuana use, and I remember wondering at the time how they knew which way the causation went. I'm also not sure if it's journalists wanting to push one narrative over the other, or just a lack of understanding.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was both. What's dishonest/incompetent is the framing of changes like the statistic as if the causal direction is clear, without addressing the (to my mind more plausible) opposite causal direction. Cigarette smoking also has a heavy association with schizophrenia, but the biases we have about it don't lend themselves to the kind of sloppy causality that you see with marijuana. I know you can legitimize biases by calling them priors, but then you need to show your work: those priors themselves should be based in harder data and explicitly referenced. Otherwise, sloppy science (and reporting) become indistinguishable from considered priors.

wydfre 5y ago

Could you go into detail about "paranoid and narcissistic personality" specifically the narcissistic personality - I have not heard of that.

macksd 5y ago
Narcissism probably isn't the right word for me to be using here. It was on my mind because of this comment, where there happens to be more discussion of it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27920152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27920152. And it happened to fit the case I was thinking of at the time. But it probably shouldn't be part of my original comment. Specifically what I'm referring to is an integral part of paranoia: someone thinking that, while long-term unemployed and living with their parents in their 40s, they are so "in the loop" as to be aware of conspiracies and such a threat to those conspiracies that they're a target. I have a hard time not equating that attitude with a little bit of narcissism, though again - probably not the right word to have used when discussing specific disorders.
- meowface 5y ago
  This is known as "delusion of reference" and is common during states of psychosis or mania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideas_and_delusions_of_reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideas_and_delusions_of_referen... >It is "the notion that everything one perceives in the world relates to one's own destiny", usually in a negative and hostile manner.
jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
I would imagine this is not a medical assessment but a more liberal, laymen use of the words paranoid and narcissistic. After all, MJ does alter the mind and broadens the worldview so to say, which could be called paranoid through a certain lens, and also dulls the senses and makes more tolerant for micro signs and non-verbal communication, which could be called, with some exaggeration, more narcisstic.

seph-reed 5y ago

I get schizophrenia from smoking pot. But I also know people who get it who've never been pot heads. Something about THC is at the center of this. And also something about age. I used to be able to smoke as much as I wanted and just enjoy it, then one day it started making me crazy.. and I kept smoking for a few years and truly lost my mind. I've heard this story countless times... something (usually around age 20) just snaps, and suddenly THC == paranoia.

tartoran 5y ago
Did your symptoms disappear when you stopped using it?
- seph-reed 5y ago
  It took a while, but yes. And they come back if I smoke again.
Bombthecat 5y ago
I know someone who went through the same thing... Now alcoholic and homeless.. Also around 20...
hirako2000 5y ago
Anecdotal. Causation isn't that simple to establish. What drives people to smoke pot may very well be a factor that Will lead to paranoia or other form of mental instability. Also to note, psycho active drugs are as they are called: psycho active. With prolonged use, tolerance increase, with further use some imbalance occurs especially when not under the influence of that substance. Re establishing that balance takes time. We are very poorly educated when it comes to mental stability, and pharmaceutical treatment is the de facto answer by medical corps. I do hope you get better, just don't forget substance use has an impact on the brain subtle chemistry, that's in a way what makes them attractive in the first place, and this impact doesn't disappear after a day like a hangover. Take some time off stimilant and psychedelics, you will slowly regain your normal self.
KittenInABox 5y ago

SquishyPanda23 5y ago

> It could very well be that marijuana puts you at higher risk of schizophrenia More likely, marijuana use accelerates the development of schizophrenia among people already at risk. > it could also be increases in the percentage of cases that actually get diagnosed, etc. This is generally a valid stock response to these sorts of studies. But it strikes me as a bit unlikely that there was previously a large amount of undiagnosed schizophrenia. (Unless we have broadened the definition recently).

mnowicki 5y ago
also it's 2% "of diagnosis" connected to marijuana use. So the difference would be if marijuana use is more commonly known/reported, regardless of whether they have 100 or 10000 diagnosis
steego 5y ago
I think the increase in cases is more likely to be explained by a number of factors: 1. THC concentrations have increased which usually means there is less CBD. 2. Legalization probably increased casual use. 3. People who suffer from schizophrenia are simply more likely to be diagnosed for whatever reason. The sum of these three things could easily account for a significant increase in diagnosis. Sometimes increases in diagnosis correlate with better detection. Sometimes they correlate with incentives to diagnose people. I’m not even suggesting a nefarious connection. Sometimes incentives with the best intentions can have a big impact.
- Weebs 5y ago
  The high THC and lack of CBD in today's strains is concerning (to me) honestly. I'm worried that a lot of the data we've seen in the past about chronic cannabis use being relatively safe may not apply when THC/CBD ratios approach 50:1, since CBD and other cannabinoids counter act some of THCs effects.
  - jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
    Criminalizing is a big part of this problem. With "medical" weed you can carefully chose a fitting strain just to your liking and condition, like indica for calming and sativa for inspiring effect, in hundreds of nuances even. But no. Too much money to be made for some groups from this prohibition. Can't have that, denied.

mthoms 5y ago

Anecdote: My half-sister is a diagnosed schizophrenic and life-long weed smoker. It seems to me (and her doctors agree) that the two are absolutely related. She was likely predisposed to schizophrenia (because of her father - which we don't share) but I often wonder if it would have progressed the way it did absent the heavy smoking. I say this also as a pot smoker myself (but only lightly in the past decade or so). I have nothing against it, and used to scoff at those who were against it. Now... I'm absolutely convinced that marijuana use can have absolutely catastrophic mental health implications for some people. I'm also convinced it can help people with certain conditions. At any rate, it's much less benign than I long thought.

Loic 5y ago
I am sorry to say that you are most likely right. My father is[0] a psychiatrist in big psychiatric hospital in France (1500 beds, only psychiatry, nothing else) and he told me again and again that he was against the legalisation of marijuana because of this. The problem is that once you trigger schizophrenia you need to live with it, all your life... Note that he told me so, even if his work during the last 15 years was mainly with the very poor people or refugees without health insurance, the ones suffering a lot from the drug dealers and all the associated black market, prostitution and abuse against minorities, women and kids. We had lively discussion because I consider that legalizing drugs would reduce violence, gangs, etc. but it is hard to argue against somebody having clear first hand experience with both sides of the problem. [0]: was in fact, he retired 2 weeks ago.
- dmos62 5y ago
  Same experience with a (art) therapist in a mental hospital (less than 1500 beds). Very persistent in asserting that weed causes some people to end up there. I don't think it's a good argument against legalization. We don't ban alcohol, because there are alcoholics. I think it would be smarter to regulate the recreational drug industry and use its taxes to fund relevant education, research and mental health programmes.
  - Weebs 5y ago

rhizome 5y ago

When this kind of thing has come up before ("pot causes mental illness"), IIRC it turns out more that people with schizoid disorders are self-medicating with pot before getting diagnosed, rather than having taken harder drugs, alcohol, etc. The classic reversed-arrow of causation.

oceanghost 5y ago
This is the correct answer here in the same way that the prevalence of ADHD is about 2x as likely in the population of meth addicts as the general population.
cornel_io 5y ago
Worse, the "classic" studies that claim to show the connection between use and schizoid disorders claim to adjust for this, but use a method that is completely wrong, and would be expected to show the same effect for any disease where diagnosis reliability at the start is less than 100% I don't remember the exact details anymore, but more or less they claim to address causation by 1) starting with a non-schizophrenic population, 2) segmenting by marijuana use, and 3) evaluating schizophrenic status N years later. The theory is that by limiting 1) to non-schizophrenics, they've factored out the possibility that schizophrenia drives drug use rather than the other way around. Of course, most schizophrenics are not actually diagnosed until waaaay past the point where they are showing symptoms, and if you've ever known a schizophrenic who was diagnosed in college, for instance, you know that that diagnosis usually comes at the end of a long chain of subtle and not so subtle mental issues, shrink appointments, and life problems that start much earlier but don't present as full blown schizophrenia. So the whole supposed filter in 1) is complete trash, and they're probably including a lot of people who are already symptomatic, just not to a clinically diagnosable degree.
southeastern 5y ago
That could be a part of it, but there is a documented effect of marijuana "triggering" mental illness in those who are susceptible to mental illness. For a certain portion of the population marijuana use will directly lead to the onset of mental illness

bombadilo 5y ago

Sorry, but the suggestion that marijuanna use leads to narcissistic personality disorder is absurd.

ChrisLomont 5y ago
There is this: "Cannabis use is associated with 2–4 times the likelihood of developing psychosis in healthy individuals: That sure seems causative. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7255842/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7255842/

HillRat 5y ago

The study is also highly sensitive to the way drug use disorders are classified by behavioral health professionals, particularly due to the changing criteria of various DSM editions. I’d want to look at the underlying dataset to see if they’ve properly accounted for exogenous effects like that.

whall6 5y ago

Either way, it’s not really a risk I want to take

Agenttin 5y ago

There's a relationship between smoking cigarettes and schizophrenia too. I think this may be a case of people trying to self medicate for their conditions. > "There has been emerging evidence of an association between tobacco smoking and schizophrenia spectrum disorders (SSD). Two meta-analyses have reported that people who smoke tobacco have an ~2-fold increased risk of incident schizophrenia or psychosis, even after adjusting for confounding factors." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6255982/#:~:text=There%20has%20been%20emerging%20evidence,after%20adjusting%20for%20confounding%20factors https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6255982/#:~:tex....

quickthrowman 5y ago
I agree 100%, I believe schizophrenics with symptoms seek out marijuana, just like they do with tobacco.

deleted 5y ago

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raxxorrax 5y ago

Additionally if you use these recreational drugs, you are constantly hiding from law enforcement or are at least weary of it. You also try to hide it and it become a permanent secret you carry around. I think this could certainly influence paranoia. To my knowledge schizophrenia is hearing voices and similar hallucinations, which are beyond trust issues. But from experience with weed smokers, I certainly have the impression that there might be some truth to the story.