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I fear anti-virus and firewall software may in the near future be used to guarantee DRM features. I fear the day when I try to play media I legally own from an

I fear anti-virus and firewall software may in the near future be used to guarantee DRM features. I fear the day when I try to play media I legally own from another region and can't play it because of region blocking and can't circumvent it because my "defense" software prevents me. Another thing that scares me: services requiring said kinds of software. The mobile world is somewhat like this already and it is basically what bars users from using their mobile phones as full blown computers even though said phone are powerful enough for that.

grishka 5y ago
As long as the hardware allows booting arbitrary code, this kind of DRM remains technically impossible. There's nothing to stop you from booting into another OS and deleting the files implementing the harmful functionality. If there are checks for the presence of these files in other parts of the OS, you can remove them. IMO it's a very dangerous attitude when people consider software immutable. You can achieve a lot by modifying software made by other people.
- ddalex 5y ago
  > There's nothing to stop you from booting into another OS and deleting the files implementing the harmful functionality. If there are checks for the presence of these files in other parts of the OS, you can remove them Encrypted disks with TPM-stored keys will certainly prevent unauthorised modification to a filesystem > hardware allows booting arbitrary code And this particular cat is already out of the bag with Win 11 REQUIRING TPM support with verified boot. The war against general-purpose computing is in the final stages, and the garden-keepers have already won for almost everything that matters. Yes, you can still source open hardware and they will not fight against technical elites - a minority - but for the vast majority of users, it's over because they LIKE the closed apps holding data hostage.
  - grishka 5y ago
    So this might be a dumb question, but what's there to prevent someone emulating a TPM? What's there to prevent someone nop'ing out the code that implements the TPM functionality in Windows? Where does the root of trust (or, rather, distrust) come from?
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      The TPM chip has a builtin key that you, as the device owner is not allowed to read. That key is certified by the manufacturer. If any manufacturer starts selling chips where you can read the key, it will be disallowed by Microsoft.
      - grishka 5y ago
        So okay, you again assume that software is immutable. But Windows has to store these trusted keys somewhere. What if I emulate the TPM with a key I generated myself, and patch Windows to trust that key?
        marcosdumay 5y ago
        Then you will discover that Secure Boot will stop your computer from starting until you reinstall something signed by Microsoft.
        grishka 5y ago
        Can't you just turn that off in the BIOS settings?
        ddalex 5y ago
        Not if BIOS doesn't allow that to be turned off.
        grishka 5y ago
        Uh, that's a thing?! How do people install Linux then? How does that work with PCI cards that contain executable code in their ROMs, does that code have to be signed by overlords now?

grishka 5y ago

As long as the hardware allows booting arbitrary code, this kind of DRM remains technically impossible. There's nothing to stop you from booting into another OS and deleting the files implementing the harmful functionality. If there are checks for the presence of these files in other parts of the OS, you can remove them. IMO it's a very dangerous attitude when people consider software immutable. You can achieve a lot by modifying software made by other people.

ddalex 5y ago
> There's nothing to stop you from booting into another OS and deleting the files implementing the harmful functionality. If there are checks for the presence of these files in other parts of the OS, you can remove them Encrypted disks with TPM-stored keys will certainly prevent unauthorised modification to a filesystem > hardware allows booting arbitrary code And this particular cat is already out of the bag with Win 11 REQUIRING TPM support with verified boot. The war against general-purpose computing is in the final stages, and the garden-keepers have already won for almost everything that matters. Yes, you can still source open hardware and they will not fight against technical elites - a minority - but for the vast majority of users, it's over because they LIKE the closed apps holding data hostage.
- grishka 5y ago
  So this might be a dumb question, but what's there to prevent someone emulating a TPM? What's there to prevent someone nop'ing out the code that implements the TPM functionality in Windows? Where does the root of trust (or, rather, distrust) come from?
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    The TPM chip has a builtin key that you, as the device owner is not allowed to read. That key is certified by the manufacturer. If any manufacturer starts selling chips where you can read the key, it will be disallowed by Microsoft.
    - grishka 5y ago
      So okay, you again assume that software is immutable. But Windows has to store these trusted keys somewhere. What if I emulate the TPM with a key I generated myself, and patch Windows to trust that key?
      - marcosdumay 5y ago
        Then you will discover that Secure Boot will stop your computer from starting until you reinstall something signed by Microsoft.
        grishka 5y ago
        Can't you just turn that off in the BIOS settings?
        ddalex 5y ago
        Not if BIOS doesn't allow that to be turned off.
        grishka 5y ago
        Uh, that's a thing?! How do people install Linux then? How does that work with PCI cards that contain executable code in their ROMs, does that code have to be signed by overlords now?