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But we aren't talking about necrophilia. It is about people who may work in an environment that is 95% Democrat being attacked as racists or whatever because t

But we aren't talking about necrophilia. It is about people who may work in an environment that is 95% Democrat being attacked as racists or whatever because they have a different political view. The issue isn't exactly about free speech but discrimination. And this happens in a million other ways too: being overweight, having a certain accent, being shorter than average. The fact that people have to resort to a "free speech" defence is indicative of the problem. And, of course, there will be "consequences"...no-one doubts that are consequences for not being like other people.

minsc__and__boo 5y ago
Political party is a personal choice and thus not a protected class. Freedom of association permits us to choose who we do and do not associate with based on that individual's own choices.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  In many jurisdictions, political affiliation/activity is protected. [1] It looks like PA has had a couple cases on the matter, one offering protection and a more recent one limiting the first case to its facts (i.e., saying it is not precedential anymore). Details on page 319. 1: https://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/empspeech.pdf https://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/empspeech.pdf
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - minsc__and__boo 5y ago
    PA courts determined that the previous 1983 ruling (protecting political party from employer termination) is not good law, and will not use it as precedence again. There are laws in place to prevent employers from coercing employees into political action - i.e. you won't get your annual bonus unless you donate to this political candidate - but these are protections from extortion, and not exceptions to the general rule that political party is not a protected class.
- chris11 5y ago
  Somewhat ironically California considers political affiliations a protected class.
  - minsc__and__boo 5y ago
    California protects employees from the threat of employers trying to force them into taking political action - i.e. you need to donate to a political candidate or attend a political event or be fired. It doesn't interfere with freedom of association for political actions taken by the employee independent of threat, such as being fired after making islamophobic comments.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  I am not talking about protected classes (a concept which only exists in the US, and therefore isn't useful generally). The point is about discrimination, which will occur irregardless of what laws you pass.
  - minsc__and__boo 5y ago
    Discrimination is a broad term that can apply to the type of bread you eat in a sandwich. When it comes to discrimination of employees by employers, then the protected classes, personal choice, and freedom of association are highly relevant irrespective of country.
rhizome 5y ago
You don't have to talk about politics at work. Heck, you may have even heard never to bring up politics or religion. Because of consequences.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  Yes, that is my point. This is just another way for people to discriminate against people who aren't "on their team". It is why civil organizations, like the Freemasons, don't allow people to talk about politics or religion. Just personally, I am not sure why other people are interested either.
klyrs 5y ago
One of the alleged opinions, "deport all Muslims," advocates for discrimination. As I said, employment consequences are complicated, and that's especially true when the employer is a public school. But, that isn't just a "different political view," it's evidence that you're predisposed towards... discrimination. If you make such statements in public, and you interview and don't hire a qualified Muslim who applies for a job at your place of employment, you've provided that applicant ammunition for a discrimination lawsuit. For that reason, it behooves a company to fire employees who make such statements in public.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  I don't believe that is what she said. You are making the point that I say should be avoided: you believe she said one thing, so that must make her an X, and Xs are dangerous...you have no idea. And if someone is discriminating against another person in hiring (btw, inevitable...height/weight/accent, it is basically impossible to remove this, people are fairly safe on religion because no-one can tell what religion another person is without asking) then that is enough. There is no need to examine the person's statements and try to work out how they would behave in a hypothetical example (doing this is discriminating...you aren't judging a person on their actions but how you believe they would act in a hypothetical you invent...would you like to be judged this way?).
  - klyrs 5y ago
    > I don't believe that is what she said. You are making the point that I say should be avoided: you believe she said one thing, so that must make her an X, and Xs are dangerous...you have no idea. No, please read my comment more carefully, because I said none of that. I don't believe that she did or didn't say anything. I said "alleged" and meant it -- I've read exactly one article about this person and never heard of her before. I said that having a post like that under one's name could be used as evidence against their employer in the case of a Title VII claim. Not that it would definitely indicate that the poster is racist; not that the poster is "dangerous" -- I'm said that the poster could reasonably be viewed as a legal liability to their employer. > you aren't judging a person on their actions but how you believe they would act in a hypothetical you invent...would you like to be judged this way? Another example of non-free speech: if you admit to having done a crime, that will be used against you in court (note, the admission itself is not a crime -- but it is evidence). If you express intent to do a crime, and somebody alleges that the same crime happened, and you're placed at the scene of the alleged crime, then your expression of intent will be used against you in court. Whether or not I want that to happen to me is irrelevant. That's how the legal system works.

minsc__and__boo 5y ago

Political party is a personal choice and thus not a protected class. Freedom of association permits us to choose who we do and do not associate with based on that individual's own choices.

gnicholas 5y ago
In many jurisdictions, political affiliation/activity is protected. [1] It looks like PA has had a couple cases on the matter, one offering protection and a more recent one limiting the first case to its facts (i.e., saying it is not precedential anymore). Details on page 319. 1: https://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/empspeech.pdf https://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/empspeech.pdf
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- minsc__and__boo 5y ago
  PA courts determined that the previous 1983 ruling (protecting political party from employer termination) is not good law, and will not use it as precedence again. There are laws in place to prevent employers from coercing employees into political action - i.e. you won't get your annual bonus unless you donate to this political candidate - but these are protections from extortion, and not exceptions to the general rule that political party is not a protected class.
chris11 5y ago
Somewhat ironically California considers political affiliations a protected class.
- minsc__and__boo 5y ago
  California protects employees from the threat of employers trying to force them into taking political action - i.e. you need to donate to a political candidate or attend a political event or be fired. It doesn't interfere with freedom of association for political actions taken by the employee independent of threat, such as being fired after making islamophobic comments.
hogFeast 5y ago
I am not talking about protected classes (a concept which only exists in the US, and therefore isn't useful generally). The point is about discrimination, which will occur irregardless of what laws you pass.
- minsc__and__boo 5y ago
  Discrimination is a broad term that can apply to the type of bread you eat in a sandwich. When it comes to discrimination of employees by employers, then the protected classes, personal choice, and freedom of association are highly relevant irrespective of country.

rhizome 5y ago

You don't have to talk about politics at work. Heck, you may have even heard never to bring up politics or religion. Because of consequences.

hogFeast 5y ago
Yes, that is my point. This is just another way for people to discriminate against people who aren't "on their team". It is why civil organizations, like the Freemasons, don't allow people to talk about politics or religion. Just personally, I am not sure why other people are interested either.

klyrs 5y ago

One of the alleged opinions, "deport all Muslims," advocates for discrimination. As I said, employment consequences are complicated, and that's especially true when the employer is a public school. But, that isn't just a "different political view," it's evidence that you're predisposed towards... discrimination. If you make such statements in public, and you interview and don't hire a qualified Muslim who applies for a job at your place of employment, you've provided that applicant ammunition for a discrimination lawsuit. For that reason, it behooves a company to fire employees who make such statements in public.

hogFeast 5y ago
I don't believe that is what she said. You are making the point that I say should be avoided: you believe she said one thing, so that must make her an X, and Xs are dangerous...you have no idea. And if someone is discriminating against another person in hiring (btw, inevitable...height/weight/accent, it is basically impossible to remove this, people are fairly safe on religion because no-one can tell what religion another person is without asking) then that is enough. There is no need to examine the person's statements and try to work out how they would behave in a hypothetical example (doing this is discriminating...you aren't judging a person on their actions but how you believe they would act in a hypothetical you invent...would you like to be judged this way?).
- klyrs 5y ago
  > I don't believe that is what she said. You are making the point that I say should be avoided: you believe she said one thing, so that must make her an X, and Xs are dangerous...you have no idea. No, please read my comment more carefully, because I said none of that. I don't believe that she did or didn't say anything. I said "alleged" and meant it -- I've read exactly one article about this person and never heard of her before. I said that having a post like that under one's name could be used as evidence against their employer in the case of a Title VII claim. Not that it would definitely indicate that the poster is racist; not that the poster is "dangerous" -- I'm said that the poster could reasonably be viewed as a legal liability to their employer. > you aren't judging a person on their actions but how you believe they would act in a hypothetical you invent...would you like to be judged this way? Another example of non-free speech: if you admit to having done a crime, that will be used against you in court (note, the admission itself is not a crime -- but it is evidence). If you express intent to do a crime, and somebody alleges that the same crime happened, and you're placed at the scene of the alleged crime, then your expression of intent will be used against you in court. Whether or not I want that to happen to me is irrelevant. That's how the legal system works.