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I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done pr

• majewsky 5y ago
  I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?
  • catillac 5y ago
    I’d say that asking if they have anything to show off and not discounting them if they don’t is in bounds. Like extra credit that no one has to do and people can get the job without.
  • deregulateMed 5y ago
    As someone with kids and side projects, I have doubts about "not having time". I could do 2 hours of productivity after the kids go to sleep and I'd still have 2 hours for entertainment. I exercise too. So let's make it even more reasonable. How about 30 minutes, 4 times a week? >Meaningful progress So then do an hour or 2? I make progress in 30 minutes and sometimes keep going. If the point is for a resume, you could even do a 1 or 2 week sprint. I suppose you could even work on it while the kids are awake. My kids love Alphablocks. If you don't have a personal side project, the issue isn't children. It's desire.
    • fernandotakai 5y ago
      it's not that i don't have time -- i do have time. but i don't want to write code as side projects anymore. i much rather do something else. play a videogame, read a book, watch series. i already work 8~10h a day, after that, i want chill and think about something else that is not code.
      • deregulateMed 5y ago
        Sure. The parent claimed there wasn't time. Btw have you considered something drastically different than your current code? Embedded comes to mind, it's half electrical engineering and lots of instant gratification. But in general, nonfiction books could help you ace an interview. I wowd some people by merely talking taoist philosophy and how despite having diverse skills, there's something to be said about sticking to your role.
        • majewsky 5y ago
          > The parent claimed there wasn't time. You forgot the second part of my sentence: > or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance
    • sha256kira 5y ago
      I do find that I have time for side projects even with my wife and I working full time with a one year old but some / most weeks I feel like Im going to drop dead and that is in part because I find myself with little time for exercise and other self care. I just think its worth regurgitating the adage that every child really is different and so is every tech job. My friends that end up working till 9pm and on weekends regularly or have more demanding children are living in completely different realities and my heart goes out to them every day. With all this said my side projects end up being very consuming and not necessarily geared towards looking good on a resume.
      • deregulateMed 5y ago
        I should put an astrik that this is only feasible when working 40 hours a week. Beyond that and the burnout is real.
  • dannyw 5y ago
    If I am trying to hire someone into my team, I want to make use of all relevant and appropriate signals that can help me make a better decision. I consider side projects to be an appropriate and often valuable signal. While it is unfortunate that side projects have some selection bias against those who are time-poor, it also feels wrong to me to discriminate against people who can demonstrate their skills and impress through their side projects. Like, if there are two candidates and all else are equal, and one has a really impressive side project that demonstrates positive traits (whether it's technical expertise, novelty, relevant skills, or communication/community), it's going to be hard to... actively ignore that?
    • Osiris 5y ago
      I am not an ideas guy. Give me a project and I'll build it. Ask me what I'd like to build and I'll have no idea. In 15 years I've had 1 side project. I'm a staff engineer.
      • dannyw 5y ago
        That's fine and great. I never consider side projects to be a requirement, and I believe they never should be. It's just an additional piece of signal that may help a candidate when relevant; the same way doing great during the interview can help a candidate.
      • withinboredom 5y ago
        I like to ask similar questions. If I was interviewing and that was your answer, I’d be just as impressed. Not everyone needs to be running around building things for fun. I’ve also had people show me pics of their wood working, mountains climbed, hunting trophies, and even 3d models. I think only one time did someone say they did nothing but take care of their spouse. We talked about that, as I have some experience there. My job is to see how you solve problems and ensure they’re compatible with our problems, along with skill set, etc.
      • ricardobeat 5y ago
        It depends a lot on what field you are in. For consumer-facing, web or mobile products, engineers who are able to speak the product language, collaborate on planning and feature development are highly valuable. That requires some investment into product and design skills, and it's a lot easier to start onto that path with side projects.
  • simonw 5y ago
    I remind myself that I've worked with fantastic colleagues who don't run any side projects, and I definitely don't want to miss out on someone like that.
  • Jenk 5y ago
    Yes that's one of the many caveats. I myself have zero time for side projects due to family etc. so I am fully sympathetic. And side projects are side projects. I was fascinated by a candidate's beer brewing project (there are some very relatable skills in management and organisation, supply chain dependencies, etc) as one example of a non-tech side project.
    • bmj 5y ago
      This is interesting. You say "side project" and I hear "hobby." (Unless, of course, this candidate was starting a brewery, in which case, that is a hobby turned side project.)
      • Jenk 5y ago
        Yes, they had started their own brewery :)
  • 908B64B197 5y ago
    I treat side projects as a "nice to have" Some of the best engineers I've worked with had exactly none, and very full lives outside of work. But you could tell they punched above their weight just by looking at the resume.
  • watwut 5y ago
    Personally, I found that if I do side projects, I simply burn out in long term. The family is not even necessary for that. It is really no different then working overtime same amount of hours.
  • deleted 5y ago
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  • prepend 5y ago
    > risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments This is true and should be considered, but it’s also kind of the part. If the goal is to find the best candidate, then discriminating against people who won’t have as much time to do side projects, read, study and train more, etc will be likely. I think it’s fair to consider these things and candidates shouldn’t be treated equally in this way.
  • ubercow13 5y ago
    By focusing only on work experience you may discriminate against candidates who have previously been underemployed due to reasons outside their control. I don’t think only taking account of employment history somehow makes hiring totally fair.
  • koolba 5y ago
    > How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly? There’s nothing unfair about preferring to hire someone who’s personal time is spent working in the same field as their job. All things being equal, I’ll pick that candidate over the alternative as it demonstrates genuine interest in the field as a pursuit, not just a career.
    • zrail 5y ago
      The obvious downside is that you're missing out on more diverse perspectives. People who spend time outside of work on things unrelated to their field, whether that's as a caregiver or unrelated hobbies, will look at the world differently than someone who dedicates most of their time to their craft.
  • notsureaboutpg 5y ago
    My workplace raises this issue as well for hiring. They went so far as to say you should not look at degrees, university that one went to, GitHub projects, etc. The problem is that if you want to pay for a quality engineer those are things that signal quality. Many people didn't have time to go to university because of caregiver duties. Many could not afford to go to university, but it's still a huge and reliable signifier of quality. The same can be said of previous jobs. Not every candidate could do a job with a reputable company because those require more work (think Amazon) and your off-job duties might conflict with that. In the end, you are going to discriminate against someone for some circumstance of their life if you screen resumes at all. There needs to be a balance but you can't throw out an entire metric because some people don't have time to participate in it. EDIT: I want to point out I have a lot of family responsibilities. I live with my parents and got married young so I was never as single and as free as my colleagues. I still don't think it makes sense to ignore a person's resume because others may not have had the chance to have as nice a resume.
  • indigochill 5y ago
    > How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly? To be frank, the job of a hiring decision-maker isn't to treat candidates fairly, it's to hire the best fit for the role based on the available signals. It's the job of the candidate to send the best signals they can, however they go about doing that. One thing we'll probe for in our interviews with more experienced candidates is what kind of experience/lessons they have from their former employers, for example, and that can weigh in their favor if there's conceivable overlap with what we're doing. But I would say don't give any single signal undue weight. Side projects are nice, but not mandatory. Heck, we've even hired people who bombed our programming test because they did okay in the post-test interview (where we'll usually see if they can work out where their solution failed).
    • deleted 5y ago
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  • j45 5y ago
    A side project can be as little as 30 minutes or an hour a week, with lots of time spent away from the keyboard thinking about the problem and designing the most effective approach to code the least. It could be a home automation project or applying tech to another interest. It’s entirely up to the individual to take initiative in their own self directed learning. Quality is far more important than quantity.
  • jawilson2 5y ago
    When I interview candidates, I ALWAYS take these things into consideration. My best hire was a guy who took some time off after his last job, and the highlight of his previous year was learning a book of Bach piano pieces. It IS, however, hard to not pry too much into personal/family stuff, for HR reasons, e.g. talking with "women who are pregnant or may become pregnant" without giving the impression that pregnancy or child care might be a detriment to hiring. Obviously there are numerous other cases like this as well, unrelated to gender, pregnancy is just the first example that came to mind. I love hearing about non-professional things. Coding outside of work is actually a negative for me, because I assume you are going to get burnt out. I WANT you to have a life outside of work, because A) you are human and deserve that, and B) you are more productive during work. I'm fine if you take a few days off to run an ultra-marathon, or take off a few hours early to catch your kid's baseball game, or care for a family member, whatever. Well-rounded people are better at writing software, in my experience, and better to work with.
• shard 5y ago
  I think it depends on just how senior this position is. Senior developer, sure. VP of engineering, no. Team lead, maybe. If you list side projects, it needs to scale with your position. A VP's side project would scale up to a viable business of its own, which then is no longer a side project but a work experience entry in the CV.
  • sime2009 5y ago
    > it needs to scale with your position. Does it? really? > A VP's side project would scale up to a viable business of its own Why? I don't follow your logic here, or we are using different definitions of side-project.
  • dcolkitt 5y ago
    I disagree. Even if I was hiring a VP of Engineering, I think it’s be cool to know that he had a silly little side project. The more senior you get, the more the biggest hiring risk becomes sociopathy rather than incompetence. Most VPs of Engineering are basically decent at the skills required for their job. But a lot are duplicitous or machiavellian and aren’t going deploy those skills in a way that’s aligned with the broader organization. Having a stupid little side project, one that has no tangible business or career upside, is a marker of sincerity. It shows that the person has genuine interests outside raw ambition.
  • HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Not necessarily. At my last job, when I was being interviewed by the company President, he had a little hexapod robot on the desk. I asked him about it and it was a side project he had. His workday was so focused on managing the business, that he kept it around so he could do at least a little programming every week and keep his feet in the tech side of things.
• ManBlanket 5y ago
  "I don't discriminate. I select the applicant most qualified to repay the loan." - Algorithm which refuses loans to black people.