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For anyone who has trouble understanding this perspective because they've lived in car-dependent hell their entire lives, I recommend the Not Just Bikes channel

For anyone who has trouble understanding this perspective because they've lived in car-dependent hell their entire lives, I recommend the Not Just Bikes channel. He does extremely detailed comparisons of US cities vs Netherlands and other places. Here is a recent one [1]. For me, I always felt that something was wrong about American cities / suburbs but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Then, I spent a few months in Tokyo and something "clicked". It's an entirely different paradigm that forced me to reevaluate what I thought was possible. When I returned to the US, on the ride from the airport my first thought was: Everyone in this traffic jam is going the same direction, and would fit in a handful of train cars. Why are we OK with this?? People say trains are expensive, but they don't realize how much money we spend on cars. Americans spent $1.1 TRILLION on personal vehicles in 2017 [2], not including the hundreds of billions spent yearly on road maintenance. Redirecting a fraction of that money would more than pay for high-speed rail. Let's do a crude estimate. Using the chart here [3], we can expect to pay somewhere between $3-163 million USD per mile of high-speed rail. The distance from NY to LA is 2789.9 miles. At $100M/mile, which is excessive, it would still only cost $279 billion. We could build THREE transcontinental high-speed rail lines every year with the money we spend on personal automobiles. If we're as cost-effective as Japan at $2.6 M / mile, we could afford to build 384,000 miles of high speed rail every YEAR. Subway lines in a city are more expensive, around $200-400 M / mile, but of course there are fewer miles to cover, so the result is the same. New York pays an excessive $2.5 billion per mile, but my understanding is that is due more to corruption and red tape. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxykI30fS54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxykI30fS54 [2] https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-united-states/ https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-uni... [3] https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/high_speed_rail_lessons.pdf https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/high_speed_rail_...

rraihansaputra 5y ago
+1 on Not Just Bikes. I also like he also iterates that public transport actually is his preference above cycling, but Netherlands has such good bicycle infrastructure to make it work. I lived in Brisbane, Australia for a year. The good state of public transport there (at least for my use, commuting to/from Uni (UQ) and the city from Toowong) made car use non-essential. The sidewalks are maintained and have enough space to the road to not be alarmed by cars. To get further/certain parts of Brisbane is still a chore as it's still a car-centric infrastructure, but comparing it to Jakarta, Indonesia/metro US, it's much better. Public transport in Jakarta is an option for most, but the last-mile experience with subpar sidewalks (especially the lack of shade) make it such a chore. I felt much healthier to walk and take public transport for my daily commute, and not to mention the beautiful views on the way. The increase in my Quality of Life is very apparent. I really miss it, and looking to move to Brisbane or another city with similar/better commute/transport paradigm in the future.
agent008t 5y ago
There could be some 'grass-is-greener' effect in play here as well though. Many that grew up having to use public transportation would see being able to use a private car as very appealing. I think everyone hates commutes regardless of whether they have to stand in a packed train car next to sweaty people, or sit in an air conditioned comfortable car listening to music but stuck in a traffic jam. That's not to say that I like the American design of where you have to drive everywhere. I like living in a town where you can walk to shops and cafes. But I also like the freedom and the comfort and the fun of being able to get into a car and drive out.
- benrbray 5y ago
  What I like about a place like Tokyo is that you can choose the mode of transportation that is most suitable for your journey. If you're someone who likes cars, there's no shortage of roads and highways. It's a great way to travel into the mountains where the trains can't go. Personally, I use my bike whenever possible, up to about a 30 minute journey. Farther than that, or when the weather is bad, I use the train. If I need to go somewhere remote, I can rent a car or call a taxi. As for a commute, housing is cheaper here than you'd expect, partly because housing is not viewed as an investment. It's not difficult to live near where you work, if avoiding the trains is a priority for you.
- tibbetts 5y ago
  There could be, but I can’t think of anyone I know who grew up with transit who talks about how much they love car centric suburbia. I do know people who like that their kids are in greener spaces, which is related.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  The problem is that this freedom and comfort and fun of driving is only part of the deal. The rest is being stuck in traffic or looking for parking - and I suspect that accounts for most of the time driving, for most people, especially when driving to work (i.e. during rush hours).
- jfroma 5y ago
  As a person raised in a country where public transportation sucks and roads are scarce and full of potholes, I am in love of American highways as much as with European public transportation. In fact, I also love NY subway, the way you can move to any part of the city without knowing anything and following just google maps directions of which subte take. The highways in America are super easy to navigate with carplay/gps and to be honest, and I have yet to see a jam where your car is completely stopped for more than 10 minutes. What I see is a dance of cars where every car travels to cruise speed.. another thing I’d mention is that I consider americans good drivers and very respectful of the laws compared to other countries.
jeffchien 5y ago
Extremely minor nit, but it should be point out that Japan is cost efficient because they've mostly built out their "easy" terrain, especially for Tokaido line (the current Tokyo-Osaka line). The Shin-Hakodate to Sapporo extension will cost them 1.24T yen for 131 km of many tunnels and bridges [0], or US $83M/mi. This cost is why it's taken Japan so long to build a complete Tokyo-Sapporo HSR line, even though the Tokyo-Sapporo air route has been one of the most popular air routes for a long time [1]. They're also working on the Chuo Line which is a new Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka line going through mountainous terrain that will facilitate 67-minute travel between Tokyo and Osaka. This line will cost 9T yen for 438km [2], which will be a whopping US $187M/mi. Funnily enough, speaking of the Tokaido line, the president of Japanese National Railway and the chief engineer resigned before its completion due to cost overruns [3]. Japan makes it look easy, but the Shinkansen had a troubled start. In comparison, for the CA HSR [4], the fairly flat Central California portion is costing $19.5B / 199 mi ($98M/mi) while the more challenging Palmdale-Burbank section is costing $16.8B / 41 mi ($382M/mi). I know you use it as a figure of speech, but all of this means that a US intercontinental line going through the Rockies would be difficult. Still, I would love to see an intra-Texas, Midwest, or East Coast HSR in my lifetime. [0] https://www.town.kutchan.hokkaido.jp/town_administration/shinkansen/ninnka/ https://www.town.kutchan.hokkaido.jp/town_administration/shi... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_routes#World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chūō_Shinkansen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chūō_Shinkansen [3] https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140714-built-for-speed-the-bullet-train https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140714-built-for-speed... [4] https://hsr.ca.gov/about/high-speed-rail-business-plans/2020-business-plan/ https://hsr.ca.gov/about/high-speed-rail-business-plans/2020...
leokennis 5y ago
If you can read Dutch, recommend this book: https://decorrespondent.nl/hetrechtvandesnelste https://decorrespondent.nl/hetrechtvandesnelste Very good introduction on how the few people (~15%) who really benefit from driving cars dictate far more than their share of public space, cause 99% of traffic deaths etc.
brudgers 5y ago
We could build THREE transcontinental high-speed rail lines every year with the money we spend on personal automobiles Once you get to the western mountains, there are only four rail grades that are suitable for freight. The old Northern through Montana near Glacier National Park; the original Union/Central Pacific route along the Platte and over the Sierras around Donner Pass; the ATSF route across the Colorado Plateau south of the Grand Canyon at Flagstaff and over the Sierras at Tehechapi via the loop, and the all weather grade through the Gadsden Purchase along the Mexico border. The reason there are so few routes is simply geography. North America's mountains run north-south and there is more than a thousand miles of them between Denver and the coast. And since the west is dry much of what is west of the first line of mountains is desert as well as mountains. Those are the grades that work for freight to the west coast. Notably, none serve much population between the Mississippi River and the Pacific. West of the Mississippi the US population density is low. The densest state California has about 1/5 the density of the Netherlands. The second most dense, Arizona is 1/20 as dense.
- hengheng 5y ago
  How's the geology compared to regions of the world that have a dense rail network? I've always found it strange that the stereotype for great rail infrastructure was Switzerland, which would be last on my list of countries to equip. French TGV climbs 3.5%, German ICE climbs 4%. That simplifies a lot of the route planning. Rail bridges are surprisingly simple and cheap (open area, known loads, no salt) and tunnels are easier the simpler the rock. I'd say it's no harder than any of the other miracles that we're building on the regular.
  - brudgers 5y ago
    Compared to the geography of Switzerland, it makes sense to talk of a trans-continental railroad in the US and is absurd in relation to Switzerland. You can put three Switzerland's (or one Portugal) in the Mojave desert. To put it another way, Europeans haven't built high speed rail from London to Baku for similar reasons. The tree lined cloisters where political theory makes all nation states equal is not a good model of physical reality.Swiss rail hasn't connected Bern to Baghdad.
Kaze404 5y ago
Cities with well thought out public transportation sometimes feel like magic. As a country girl who once moved to a metropolis, the fact that I could walk into literally any subway station and go wherever I wanted in a matter of 30 minutes to an hour at most felt more liberating than I could think of. In a city bigger than some European countries, I had the option to go anywhere I wanted on the weekend for the low price of R$4 and an hour or so listening to music with no stress in my mind. I hope one day people in the US can experience this feeling as well.
- Akronymus 5y ago
  Speaking of subways: IMO vienna has THE best system overall. No turnstiles[1], clean subway trains/stations, quite frequent and cheap (1€ a day with the yearly ticket). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ
  - etc-hosts 5y ago
    Loved Vienna's subways. I don't read German so I could not figure out how to buy a ticket.
    - Akronymus 5y ago
      https://www.welcomepickups.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/DSC0285.jpg https://www.welcomepickups.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/DS... Pretty sure those have a english language option.
- heresie-dabord 5y ago
  > go wherever I wanted in a matter of 30 minutes to an hour at most This concept of traversal-by-foot as an inherent measure of scalability is also known as the Marchetti Constant. This article has appeared on HN before: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-commuting-principle-that-shaped-urban-history https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-commu...
- baud147258 5y ago
lucideer 5y ago
Another +1 on Not Just Bikes. Something many people overlook about Netherlands is how reliant on public transport they aren't. City design enabling local amenities to actually be truly local (within walking distance) is an underestimated boon. That's enormously easier to do in practice without the burden of highways and carparks. There's also a general myth about Europe being "forced" into smaller more localized city plans by having older cities with smaller streets (accidentally creating more "local" urban environments) but that's not really the case. Road-widening projects have been common in many old European cities for centuries; the cities that are human-friendly are the ones who've undertaken the gargantuan task of reversing a lot of these car-oriented urban plans[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bic...

rraihansaputra 5y ago

+1 on Not Just Bikes. I also like he also iterates that public transport actually is his preference above cycling, but Netherlands has such good bicycle infrastructure to make it work. I lived in Brisbane, Australia for a year. The good state of public transport there (at least for my use, commuting to/from Uni (UQ) and the city from Toowong) made car use non-essential. The sidewalks are maintained and have enough space to the road to not be alarmed by cars. To get further/certain parts of Brisbane is still a chore as it's still a car-centric infrastructure, but comparing it to Jakarta, Indonesia/metro US, it's much better. Public transport in Jakarta is an option for most, but the last-mile experience with subpar sidewalks (especially the lack of shade) make it such a chore. I felt much healthier to walk and take public transport for my daily commute, and not to mention the beautiful views on the way. The increase in my Quality of Life is very apparent. I really miss it, and looking to move to Brisbane or another city with similar/better commute/transport paradigm in the future.

agent008t 5y ago

There could be some 'grass-is-greener' effect in play here as well though. Many that grew up having to use public transportation would see being able to use a private car as very appealing. I think everyone hates commutes regardless of whether they have to stand in a packed train car next to sweaty people, or sit in an air conditioned comfortable car listening to music but stuck in a traffic jam. That's not to say that I like the American design of where you have to drive everywhere. I like living in a town where you can walk to shops and cafes. But I also like the freedom and the comfort and the fun of being able to get into a car and drive out.

benrbray 5y ago
What I like about a place like Tokyo is that you can choose the mode of transportation that is most suitable for your journey. If you're someone who likes cars, there's no shortage of roads and highways. It's a great way to travel into the mountains where the trains can't go. Personally, I use my bike whenever possible, up to about a 30 minute journey. Farther than that, or when the weather is bad, I use the train. If I need to go somewhere remote, I can rent a car or call a taxi. As for a commute, housing is cheaper here than you'd expect, partly because housing is not viewed as an investment. It's not difficult to live near where you work, if avoiding the trains is a priority for you.
tibbetts 5y ago
There could be, but I can’t think of anyone I know who grew up with transit who talks about how much they love car centric suburbia. I do know people who like that their kids are in greener spaces, which is related.
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
The problem is that this freedom and comfort and fun of driving is only part of the deal. The rest is being stuck in traffic or looking for parking - and I suspect that accounts for most of the time driving, for most people, especially when driving to work (i.e. during rush hours).
jfroma 5y ago
As a person raised in a country where public transportation sucks and roads are scarce and full of potholes, I am in love of American highways as much as with European public transportation. In fact, I also love NY subway, the way you can move to any part of the city without knowing anything and following just google maps directions of which subte take. The highways in America are super easy to navigate with carplay/gps and to be honest, and I have yet to see a jam where your car is completely stopped for more than 10 minutes. What I see is a dance of cars where every car travels to cruise speed.. another thing I’d mention is that I consider americans good drivers and very respectful of the laws compared to other countries.

jeffchien 5y ago

Extremely minor nit, but it should be point out that Japan is cost efficient because they've mostly built out their "easy" terrain, especially for Tokaido line (the current Tokyo-Osaka line). The Shin-Hakodate to Sapporo extension will cost them 1.24T yen for 131 km of many tunnels and bridges [0], or US $83M/mi. This cost is why it's taken Japan so long to build a complete Tokyo-Sapporo HSR line, even though the Tokyo-Sapporo air route has been one of the most popular air routes for a long time [1]. They're also working on the Chuo Line which is a new Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka line going through mountainous terrain that will facilitate 67-minute travel between Tokyo and Osaka. This line will cost 9T yen for 438km [2], which will be a whopping US $187M/mi. Funnily enough, speaking of the Tokaido line, the president of Japanese National Railway and the chief engineer resigned before its completion due to cost overruns [3]. Japan makes it look easy, but the Shinkansen had a troubled start. In comparison, for the CA HSR [4], the fairly flat Central California portion is costing $19.5B / 199 mi ($98M/mi) while the more challenging Palmdale-Burbank section is costing $16.8B / 41 mi ($382M/mi). I know you use it as a figure of speech, but all of this means that a US intercontinental line going through the Rockies would be difficult. Still, I would love to see an intra-Texas, Midwest, or East Coast HSR in my lifetime. [0] https://www.town.kutchan.hokkaido.jp/town_administration/shinkansen/ninnka/ https://www.town.kutchan.hokkaido.jp/town_administration/shi... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_routes#World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chūō_Shinkansen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chūō_Shinkansen [3] https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140714-built-for-speed-the-bullet-train https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140714-built-for-speed... [4] https://hsr.ca.gov/about/high-speed-rail-business-plans/2020-business-plan/ https://hsr.ca.gov/about/high-speed-rail-business-plans/2020...

leokennis 5y ago

If you can read Dutch, recommend this book: https://decorrespondent.nl/hetrechtvandesnelste https://decorrespondent.nl/hetrechtvandesnelste Very good introduction on how the few people (~15%) who really benefit from driving cars dictate far more than their share of public space, cause 99% of traffic deaths etc.

brudgers 5y ago

We could build THREE transcontinental high-speed rail lines every year with the money we spend on personal automobiles Once you get to the western mountains, there are only four rail grades that are suitable for freight. The old Northern through Montana near Glacier National Park; the original Union/Central Pacific route along the Platte and over the Sierras around Donner Pass; the ATSF route across the Colorado Plateau south of the Grand Canyon at Flagstaff and over the Sierras at Tehechapi via the loop, and the all weather grade through the Gadsden Purchase along the Mexico border. The reason there are so few routes is simply geography. North America's mountains run north-south and there is more than a thousand miles of them between Denver and the coast. And since the west is dry much of what is west of the first line of mountains is desert as well as mountains. Those are the grades that work for freight to the west coast. Notably, none serve much population between the Mississippi River and the Pacific. West of the Mississippi the US population density is low. The densest state California has about 1/5 the density of the Netherlands. The second most dense, Arizona is 1/20 as dense.

hengheng 5y ago
How's the geology compared to regions of the world that have a dense rail network? I've always found it strange that the stereotype for great rail infrastructure was Switzerland, which would be last on my list of countries to equip. French TGV climbs 3.5%, German ICE climbs 4%. That simplifies a lot of the route planning. Rail bridges are surprisingly simple and cheap (open area, known loads, no salt) and tunnels are easier the simpler the rock. I'd say it's no harder than any of the other miracles that we're building on the regular.
- brudgers 5y ago
  Compared to the geography of Switzerland, it makes sense to talk of a trans-continental railroad in the US and is absurd in relation to Switzerland. You can put three Switzerland's (or one Portugal) in the Mojave desert. To put it another way, Europeans haven't built high speed rail from London to Baku for similar reasons. The tree lined cloisters where political theory makes all nation states equal is not a good model of physical reality.Swiss rail hasn't connected Bern to Baghdad.

Kaze404 5y ago

Cities with well thought out public transportation sometimes feel like magic. As a country girl who once moved to a metropolis, the fact that I could walk into literally any subway station and go wherever I wanted in a matter of 30 minutes to an hour at most felt more liberating than I could think of. In a city bigger than some European countries, I had the option to go anywhere I wanted on the weekend for the low price of R$4 and an hour or so listening to music with no stress in my mind. I hope one day people in the US can experience this feeling as well.

Akronymus 5y ago
Speaking of subways: IMO vienna has THE best system overall. No turnstiles[1], clean subway trains/stations, quite frequent and cheap (1€ a day with the yearly ticket). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ
- etc-hosts 5y ago
  Loved Vienna's subways. I don't read German so I could not figure out how to buy a ticket.
  - Akronymus 5y ago
    https://www.welcomepickups.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/DSC0285.jpg https://www.welcomepickups.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/DS... Pretty sure those have a english language option.
heresie-dabord 5y ago
> go wherever I wanted in a matter of 30 minutes to an hour at most This concept of traversal-by-foot as an inherent measure of scalability is also known as the Marchetti Constant. This article has appeared on HN before: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-commuting-principle-that-shaped-urban-history https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-commu...
baud147258 5y ago

lucideer 5y ago

Another +1 on Not Just Bikes. Something many people overlook about Netherlands is how reliant on public transport they aren't. City design enabling local amenities to actually be truly local (within walking distance) is an underestimated boon. That's enormously easier to do in practice without the burden of highways and carparks. There's also a general myth about Europe being "forced" into smaller more localized city plans by having older cities with smaller streets (accidentally creating more "local" urban environments) but that's not really the case. Road-widening projects have been common in many old European cities for centuries; the cities that are human-friendly are the ones who've undertaken the gargantuan task of reversing a lot of these car-oriented urban plans[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bic...