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> Maybe police should default to assume swatting and develop techniques to evaluate actual risk prior to storming in based on an anonymous phone call? The arti

> Maybe police should default to assume swatting and develop techniques to evaluate actual risk prior to storming in based on an anonymous phone call? The article doesn’t say a SWAT team was deployed, just that the police responded to a call. The image of a SWAT team is just a stock photo. The police also did not “storm” anything. The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. I don’t really understand what you want the police to do in these situations where they receive calls about gun crimes in progress. They can’t just assume it’s a prank and wait around to see if anyone dies before they choose to send some police to investigate.

coldtea 5y ago
>The police also did not “storm” anything. The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. In this case perhaps, but the parents' comment wasn't particular to this instance but generic. And there are tons of cases where SWATing actually happened, unecessary force was deployed, and so on, sometimes even captured on camera... >I don’t really understand what you want the police to do in these situations where they receive calls about gun crimes in progress. The same procedure that is followed in civilized countries would be a good start.
- detaro 5y ago
  What exactly is that universal "same procedure" that "civilized countries" (please leave such flamebait out btw) follow? The primary reason this wouldn't happen like this in most other countries is that it's unlikely that the home owner would turn up with a gun - if they did, police would be pointing theirs too. Really the main missed opportunity here seems to be the call of the neighbor, which could have been used to coordinate, but overall it sounds like the one swatting death which really was a dumb accident.
  - rembicilious 5y ago
    It wasn’t a dumb accident, and law enforcement isn’t to blame in this case. The police response was deliberately incited by a group of malicious individuals. How can minors, who typically are given lighter sentences, be discouraged from “swatting”?
    - avs733 5y ago
      Swatting only seems to exist in the us (afaik?) with a heavily militarized police force full of agro authoritarians trained to prioritize violence and force. All countries have idiot teenagers… Maybe we can take the model of other countries that have idiot teenagers but no swatting problem?
      - zepto 5y ago
        > Swatting only seems to exist in the us I don’t think this is true. I personally know of a case in the UK where due to a false report of a gun, an armed squad was sent to someone’s house. It may not be discussed as casually as it is in the US, but every country has armed police and they deploy them when they expect guns to be involved.
        trasz 5y ago
        There’s a fundamental difference between an UK “armed squad”, and SWAT in the US.
        ghufran_syed 5y ago
        perhaps you could describe that “fundamental difference”???
        avs733 5y ago
        The culture of policing in both places.
        5y ago
  - watwut 5y ago
    > What exactly is that universal "same procedure" that "civilized countries" (please leave such flamebait out btw) follow? Flamebait language beyond, US cops deploy SWAT teams on regular warrants and non-violent crimes. US cops seem to love their swat teams. > The primary reason this wouldn't happen like this in most other countries is that it's unlikely that the home owner would turn up with a gun - if they did, police would be pointing theirs too. Like, it is legal to own the gun, but if you have one cops are free to shoot you?
    - hacoo 5y ago
      As I understand it, SWAT teams are seen as very prestigious by both police officers and departments. IMO it stems from the fetishization of all things ‘tactical’ which is common in American culture. Many cops say their goal is to join SWAT rather than the normal progression of detective, captain, etc. Anyway, I suspect this leads to SWAT teams wanting to justify their existence by responding to as many situations as possible. It is a complicated issue, though. In a country where many people own assault rifles that massively outgun a cop’s pistol, SWAT teams are kind of a necessity.
      - merpnderp 5y ago
        Most regular cops carry patrol rifles in their vehicles. They are almost never outgunned.
    - detaro 5y ago
      > Like, it is legal to own the gun, but if you have one cops are free to shoot you? That's in no way what I said, and not what happened here for once?
  - coldtea 5y ago
    (1) Regular police (as opposed to SWAT or SWAT-like equipped units) are dispatched for things that are not riots (2) Police checks and verifies first, as opposed to kicking doors in shooting because a 13 year old made a call. (3) Police is taught not to be trigger happy, even if there are reports - or actual sighting - of the suspect carrying a gun, knife, etc. (4) Police doesn't get military surplus equipment fit for war, nor does it use it in civillian cases. (5) Police doesn't equate a report of someone selling/doing drugs, with a chance to storm the place guns a blazing. (6) Traffic police doesn't get to shoot you if they stopped your car and you had the audacity to walk out towards them. That's not even a thing. (7) The police is taught to discern low-risk and high-risk situations, and not e.g. treat a guy with a knife 30 feet away, or a small black boy playing in a park as a threat. (8) The police is taught to be an aid to the citizen, not to see everybody as a threat. Some pointers: https://www.amazon.com/SWAT-Madness-Militarization-American-Police/dp/0313391912 https://www.amazon.com/SWAT-Madness-Militarization-American-... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/police-militarization-fails-to-protect-officers-and-targets-black-communities-study-finds https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/police-militarization-f... https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2020/06/poisoning-our-police-how-the-militarization-mindset-threatens-constitutional-rights-and-public-safety/ https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2020/06/poisoning-our-police-h... https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/885942130/militarization-of-police-means-u-s-protesters-face-weapons-designed-for-war https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/885942130/militarization-of-p...
    - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
      > It's not just that there are fewer guns elsewhere I'm sorry but it seems to be the main factor though. When the probability of the suspect carrying a gun is very low, you are not that motivated to use yours. > (many countries have heavy hunting population, and people will use shotguns, close themselves in their house if they're accused, etc). That's completely different. You can't really hide your hunting weapon in your jacket. People don't walk around with their weapons in the town. The culture is completely different. Even in a country where many people do own weapons (Switzerland) it's very rare that someone would use them for crime.
    - detaro 5y ago
      The entire point here is that almost none of those generic (but very real!) issues really apply in this specific case for once (especially given the call number2 applies a bit, as I already said). "Police responding to a call about a shooter are armed, actually encounter someone with a gun, point guns and tell them to drop it, gun gets dropped, nobody gets shot" sounds like something that could happen in many places and is not a useful example for cops being way to fast to shoot people.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  > The same procedure that is followed in civilized countries would be a good start. Bad accidents happen in Europe, too. Mostly it's because of bad int and armed forces breaking in to innocent people's homes, with children having trauma for life. Sometimes they don't even apologize. EDIT: Sometimes it's not even by mistake but on purpose. In 2014 after islamist extremists killed journalists over publications of images offending them, some young people expressed their approval for the killing, including a 10-year old girl. Armed police stormed her apartment in the morning while she was sleeping and detained her for 11 hours: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/france-4-children-terrorized-by-police-for-11-hours/2035384 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/france-4-children-terrorized...
- amarant 5y ago
  What we do in the civilized world is we don't allow everyone to have assault rifles at home. This makes it much easier for police to know whether they can expect a firearm or not. The cases where criminally begotten weapons are less common, and mostly the police have an idea of which areas to expect them (it's basically only organised crime gangs that have weapons other than hunting rifles(which are registered, always)) Also some limits on what weapons police can use, keeps them from getting carried away... It's not perfect, but I do believe it's better than rolling in with tanks on innocent people's homes!
  - bierjunge 5y ago
    > What we do in the civilized world is we don't allow everyone to have assault rifles at home. It's not so uncommon to have a assault rifle from the military or other guns at home in Switzerland and their numbers are way lower than in the US [0]. It's not about having guns, it's about proper training and not giving weapons to psychologically unstable people. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...
    - rob74 5y ago
      Yeah, but these guns are registered too, so police will know what they have to expect.
    - soco 5y ago
      Hi, Switzerland here. I wish US americans would stop citing Switzerland as example for assault weapons allowed in Europe. It's one thing being allowed to keep the rifle at home, and an entire other thing being allowed to actually use it. The only reason Swiss are allowed the rifle at home is to be able to intervene quickly in case of war. And it comes with a lot of hooks so definitely no, police will not expect you being armed - not at home and even less on the streets.
      - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
        To clarify, are Swiss citizens allowed to use the assault rifles they keep at home to defend themselves or their property against criminals?
underseacables 5y ago
Why would anyone go outside to meet the police with a gun in their hand?
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  Sentence is about 6 words too long.
- helsinkiandrew 5y ago
  "He went out the house with a gun, because he heard someone was on his property,"
username90 5y ago
You don't think the police tazered the guy here? Since he died of a heart attack my guess is they did. Police in other countries typically doesn't use tazers.
artificialLimbs 5y ago
They literally can wait around and see if anyone dies, according to the supreme court ruling declaring that they have no obligation to protect anyone (in the U.S.). https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
- Thorrez 5y ago
  Sure they legally can do that. But a police department's goal shouldn't be do do the minimum necessary without breaking the law. Their goal should be to be as beneficial as reasonably possible.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    I would argue their response shouldn't be to storm in with military flashbangs either, which is a typical response causing serious physical harm - burns, deafness, blindness. I refuse to believe there isn't a middle ground.
    - dustymcp 5y ago
      there is ban guns..
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        I mean I'm totally fine with that, though I'm led to believe this is a fairly contentious issue in American politics haha.
      - 67yzxLKK2TRfiWZ 5y ago
        You mean use guns to steal people's guns?
      - artificialLimbs 5y ago
        If we end up in a situation like in today's Cuba, there would be nothing the people can do to stop the government from doing whatever they like.
himinlomax 5y ago
> I don’t really understand what you want the police to do in these situations where they receive calls about gun crimes in progress. They can’t just assume it’s a prank and wait around to see if anyone dies before they choose to send some police to investigate. If they assumed it was a prank, there's a chance nobody would die, unlike in this case where they did make sure somebody would. Is that the point you're making?
biasedbrain 5y ago
The headline says there was a swatting, though.
iso1631 5y ago
> The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. I wonder what color his skin was
rchaud 5y ago
> The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. "De-escalated it" to the point where the homeowner had a heart attack and died. Without the video, this just looks like poor police work, and of course a heinous crime by the original caller.
LorenPechtel 5y ago
Agreed, but all too often there has been a forced entry. I think they should be resorting to cameras first.
WCityMike 5y ago
From Krebs on Security (linked to from Jason Scott's Twitter thread): > Unable to disengage a lock on his back fence, Herring was instructed to somehow climb over the fence with his hands up. > “He was starting to get more upset,” Billings recalled. “He said, ‘I’m a 60-year-old fat man and I can’t do that.'” > Billings said Mr. Herring then offered to crawl under a gap in the fence, but when he did so and stood up, he collapsed of a heart attack. Herring died at a nearby hospital soon after.

coldtea 5y ago

>The police also did not “storm” anything. The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. In this case perhaps, but the parents' comment wasn't particular to this instance but generic. And there are tons of cases where SWATing actually happened, unecessary force was deployed, and so on, sometimes even captured on camera... >I don’t really understand what you want the police to do in these situations where they receive calls about gun crimes in progress. The same procedure that is followed in civilized countries would be a good start.

detaro 5y ago
What exactly is that universal "same procedure" that "civilized countries" (please leave such flamebait out btw) follow? The primary reason this wouldn't happen like this in most other countries is that it's unlikely that the home owner would turn up with a gun - if they did, police would be pointing theirs too. Really the main missed opportunity here seems to be the call of the neighbor, which could have been used to coordinate, but overall it sounds like the one swatting death which really was a dumb accident.
- rembicilious 5y ago
  It wasn’t a dumb accident, and law enforcement isn’t to blame in this case. The police response was deliberately incited by a group of malicious individuals. How can minors, who typically are given lighter sentences, be discouraged from “swatting”?
  - avs733 5y ago
    Swatting only seems to exist in the us (afaik?) with a heavily militarized police force full of agro authoritarians trained to prioritize violence and force. All countries have idiot teenagers… Maybe we can take the model of other countries that have idiot teenagers but no swatting problem?
    - zepto 5y ago
      > Swatting only seems to exist in the us I don’t think this is true. I personally know of a case in the UK where due to a false report of a gun, an armed squad was sent to someone’s house. It may not be discussed as casually as it is in the US, but every country has armed police and they deploy them when they expect guns to be involved.
      - trasz 5y ago
        There’s a fundamental difference between an UK “armed squad”, and SWAT in the US.
        ghufran_syed 5y ago
        perhaps you could describe that “fundamental difference”???
        avs733 5y ago
        The culture of policing in both places.
        5y ago
- watwut 5y ago
  > What exactly is that universal "same procedure" that "civilized countries" (please leave such flamebait out btw) follow? Flamebait language beyond, US cops deploy SWAT teams on regular warrants and non-violent crimes. US cops seem to love their swat teams. > The primary reason this wouldn't happen like this in most other countries is that it's unlikely that the home owner would turn up with a gun - if they did, police would be pointing theirs too. Like, it is legal to own the gun, but if you have one cops are free to shoot you?
  - hacoo 5y ago
    As I understand it, SWAT teams are seen as very prestigious by both police officers and departments. IMO it stems from the fetishization of all things ‘tactical’ which is common in American culture. Many cops say their goal is to join SWAT rather than the normal progression of detective, captain, etc. Anyway, I suspect this leads to SWAT teams wanting to justify their existence by responding to as many situations as possible. It is a complicated issue, though. In a country where many people own assault rifles that massively outgun a cop’s pistol, SWAT teams are kind of a necessity.
    - merpnderp 5y ago
      Most regular cops carry patrol rifles in their vehicles. They are almost never outgunned.
  - detaro 5y ago
    > Like, it is legal to own the gun, but if you have one cops are free to shoot you? That's in no way what I said, and not what happened here for once?
- coldtea 5y ago
  (1) Regular police (as opposed to SWAT or SWAT-like equipped units) are dispatched for things that are not riots (2) Police checks and verifies first, as opposed to kicking doors in shooting because a 13 year old made a call. (3) Police is taught not to be trigger happy, even if there are reports - or actual sighting - of the suspect carrying a gun, knife, etc. (4) Police doesn't get military surplus equipment fit for war, nor does it use it in civillian cases. (5) Police doesn't equate a report of someone selling/doing drugs, with a chance to storm the place guns a blazing. (6) Traffic police doesn't get to shoot you if they stopped your car and you had the audacity to walk out towards them. That's not even a thing. (7) The police is taught to discern low-risk and high-risk situations, and not e.g. treat a guy with a knife 30 feet away, or a small black boy playing in a park as a threat. (8) The police is taught to be an aid to the citizen, not to see everybody as a threat. Some pointers: https://www.amazon.com/SWAT-Madness-Militarization-American-Police/dp/0313391912 https://www.amazon.com/SWAT-Madness-Militarization-American-... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/police-militarization-fails-to-protect-officers-and-targets-black-communities-study-finds https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/police-militarization-f... https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2020/06/poisoning-our-police-how-the-militarization-mindset-threatens-constitutional-rights-and-public-safety/ https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2020/06/poisoning-our-police-h... https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/885942130/militarization-of-police-means-u-s-protesters-face-weapons-designed-for-war https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/885942130/militarization-of-p...
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    > It's not just that there are fewer guns elsewhere I'm sorry but it seems to be the main factor though. When the probability of the suspect carrying a gun is very low, you are not that motivated to use yours. > (many countries have heavy hunting population, and people will use shotguns, close themselves in their house if they're accused, etc). That's completely different. You can't really hide your hunting weapon in your jacket. People don't walk around with their weapons in the town. The culture is completely different. Even in a country where many people do own weapons (Switzerland) it's very rare that someone would use them for crime.
  - detaro 5y ago
    The entire point here is that almost none of those generic (but very real!) issues really apply in this specific case for once (especially given the call number2 applies a bit, as I already said). "Police responding to a call about a shooter are armed, actually encounter someone with a gun, point guns and tell them to drop it, gun gets dropped, nobody gets shot" sounds like something that could happen in many places and is not a useful example for cops being way to fast to shoot people.
dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
> The same procedure that is followed in civilized countries would be a good start. Bad accidents happen in Europe, too. Mostly it's because of bad int and armed forces breaking in to innocent people's homes, with children having trauma for life. Sometimes they don't even apologize. EDIT: Sometimes it's not even by mistake but on purpose. In 2014 after islamist extremists killed journalists over publications of images offending them, some young people expressed their approval for the killing, including a 10-year old girl. Armed police stormed her apartment in the morning while she was sleeping and detained her for 11 hours: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/france-4-children-terrorized-by-police-for-11-hours/2035384 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/france-4-children-terrorized...
amarant 5y ago
What we do in the civilized world is we don't allow everyone to have assault rifles at home. This makes it much easier for police to know whether they can expect a firearm or not. The cases where criminally begotten weapons are less common, and mostly the police have an idea of which areas to expect them (it's basically only organised crime gangs that have weapons other than hunting rifles(which are registered, always)) Also some limits on what weapons police can use, keeps them from getting carried away... It's not perfect, but I do believe it's better than rolling in with tanks on innocent people's homes!
- bierjunge 5y ago
  > What we do in the civilized world is we don't allow everyone to have assault rifles at home. It's not so uncommon to have a assault rifle from the military or other guns at home in Switzerland and their numbers are way lower than in the US [0]. It's not about having guns, it's about proper training and not giving weapons to psychologically unstable people. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...
  - rob74 5y ago
    Yeah, but these guns are registered too, so police will know what they have to expect.
  - soco 5y ago
    Hi, Switzerland here. I wish US americans would stop citing Switzerland as example for assault weapons allowed in Europe. It's one thing being allowed to keep the rifle at home, and an entire other thing being allowed to actually use it. The only reason Swiss are allowed the rifle at home is to be able to intervene quickly in case of war. And it comes with a lot of hooks so definitely no, police will not expect you being armed - not at home and even less on the streets.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
      To clarify, are Swiss citizens allowed to use the assault rifles they keep at home to defend themselves or their property against criminals?

underseacables 5y ago

Why would anyone go outside to meet the police with a gun in their hand?

artificialLimbs 5y ago
Sentence is about 6 words too long.
helsinkiandrew 5y ago
"He went out the house with a gun, because he heard someone was on his property,"

username90 5y ago

You don't think the police tazered the guy here? Since he died of a heart attack my guess is they did. Police in other countries typically doesn't use tazers.

artificialLimbs 5y ago

They literally can wait around and see if anyone dies, according to the supreme court ruling declaring that they have no obligation to protect anyone (in the U.S.). https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...

Thorrez 5y ago
Sure they legally can do that. But a police department's goal shouldn't be do do the minimum necessary without breaking the law. Their goal should be to be as beneficial as reasonably possible.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I would argue their response shouldn't be to storm in with military flashbangs either, which is a typical response causing serious physical harm - burns, deafness, blindness. I refuse to believe there isn't a middle ground.
  - dustymcp 5y ago
    there is ban guns..
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      I mean I'm totally fine with that, though I'm led to believe this is a fairly contentious issue in American politics haha.
    - 67yzxLKK2TRfiWZ 5y ago
      You mean use guns to steal people's guns?
    - artificialLimbs 5y ago
      If we end up in a situation like in today's Cuba, there would be nothing the people can do to stop the government from doing whatever they like.

himinlomax 5y ago

> I don’t really understand what you want the police to do in these situations where they receive calls about gun crimes in progress. They can’t just assume it’s a prank and wait around to see if anyone dies before they choose to send some police to investigate. If they assumed it was a prank, there's a chance nobody would die, unlike in this case where they did make sure somebody would. Is that the point you're making?

biasedbrain 5y ago

The headline says there was a swatting, though.

iso1631 5y ago

> The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. I wonder what color his skin was

rchaud 5y ago

> The homeowner went outside with a gun in hand and they de-escalated the situation without “storming” or firing any shots. "De-escalated it" to the point where the homeowner had a heart attack and died. Without the video, this just looks like poor police work, and of course a heinous crime by the original caller.

LorenPechtel 5y ago

Agreed, but all too often there has been a forced entry. I think they should be resorting to cameras first.

WCityMike 5y ago

From Krebs on Security (linked to from Jason Scott's Twitter thread): > Unable to disengage a lock on his back fence, Herring was instructed to somehow climb over the fence with his hands up. > “He was starting to get more upset,” Billings recalled. “He said, ‘I’m a 60-year-old fat man and I can’t do that.'” > Billings said Mr. Herring then offered to crawl under a gap in the fence, but when he did so and stood up, he collapsed of a heart attack. Herring died at a nearby hospital soon after.