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i'm shocked how ignorant these lawmakers are, trying to gain control over a decentralised structure nobody asked them for this and even if this change ends up

i'm shocked how ignorant these lawmakers are, trying to gain control over a decentralised structure nobody asked them for this and even if this change ends up in bitcoin's core, it will ultimately fail to reach consensus our wallets are none of your business, EU, get out!

bpodgursky 5y ago
From the bureaucrat's point of view, all of your assets are "yours" contingent only on the goodwill of the relevant regulations. Parable of the scorpion and turtle; expect neither more nor less.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  You will own nothing, and be happy. What are you going to do, rebel against the EU? \s
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sergiomattei 5y ago
I'm shocked how naive the DeFi industry was to think they could get away with little to no regulation. Tech doesn't rule the world. Old power structures are still in place.
- ushakov 5y ago
  DeFi was built with censorship resistance in mind EU can come up with new laws all day every day, but considering the technical detail, these laws will be impossible to enforce
  - stavros 5y ago
    The laws will be trivial to enforce. Expect to be unable to exchange cryptocurrency (that you own in your wallet) to fiat, which will almost kill the cryptocurrency market for anything other than speculation. I expect a parallel, dark economy will still be around, where people transact with cryptocurrency and can only exchange it for cash.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      It will kill the speculative market. Their native use cases in their own systems will still be 100% viable. If someone uses for example bitcoin cash or miner as money as they're intended nobody can do a thing about it. For those people uninterested in off ramps this means little.
      - stavros 5y ago
        I use it as money as it's intended, to get paid for my work. The supermarket doesn't accept BTC, does that still make it 100% viable? You better believe I'm going to be paid in USD from now on.
        betwixthewires 5y ago
        For those people who use it, yes.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    I'm not so sure. Unless an EU citizen wants to risk submitting a false tax return under penalty of perjury, any DeFi money that results in a profit has to be reported elsewhere. Your bank will probably also start to ask questions if you do enough DeFi activity. You can probably get away with small transactions, but is it honestly worth the risk? I don't see this law as impossible to enforce, but rather, difficult to enforce. The government will still try, and most likely succeed in catching several institutions that don't comply. Governments don't actually need thorough enforcement for laws to be effective. Being easily capable of breaking a law does not mean that the law is unenforceable.
- programmarchy 5y ago
  Old power structures get replaced by new tech; politics is downstream from technology. Banning exchanges may actually accelerate the transition to decentralized finance.
Barrin92 5y ago
>nobody asked them for this I very much support the policy. Anonymous money pretty much serves one thing uniquely well which is avoiding the law, sanctions, laundering money, buying drugs or funding crime and I don't think any society has interest in having these markets exist outside of the purview of the state.
- ushakov 5y ago
  would you also support banning words? it's apparent, that money launderers, drug buyers, criminals communicate using words
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    What kind of strawman is that? I didn't say I want to get rid of all forms of digital payments, I'm perfectly fine with any form of digital payment system if it is able to comply with basic due diligence required by the law. Anonymous payments stand out in that their only distinguishing advantage is that they make that impossible. I don't want to ban words and I don't want to ban money. But society very well can demand that there is no shadow financial system that avoids obligations everyone else has to comply with.
    - ushakov 5y ago
      society and the EU are welcome to demand whatever they want! :) the ugly truth is that they have no power over the bitcoin network and their ideas will not reach consensus from miners that's why they're to attacking the middlemen instead
      - phatfish 5y ago
        Bitcoin has no power in the real world. For digital transactions is has some leverage as pure data is much harder to control. Unless people are spending their Bitcoin gainz on Second Life property and not real world assets then regulation targeting the "middle men" is simply common sense. Crypto is trivial for a functioning government to regulate, until we all live in the Matrix.
dogma1138 5y ago
They don’t need to go after the protocol they can simply put legislation to regulate how exchanges and other services that allow you to trade and easily transfer digital currency operate.
mdoms 5y ago
> nobody asked them for this I'm in favour of regulating and tracing cryptocurrency. I don't think people should be able to sell kiddie porn, bribe officials, scam innocent people or launder money with impunity. I think lots of people would agree with me.
- boredwithlife 5y ago
  People should be able to transact business among themselves without the government knowing. The ugly comes with the good. It's part of life, personal responsibility.
- pennaMan 5y ago
  Criminals by definition do not care how many laws and regulations a honest person has to deal or wrongly go to prison for.

bpodgursky 5y ago

From the bureaucrat's point of view, all of your assets are "yours" contingent only on the goodwill of the relevant regulations. Parable of the scorpion and turtle; expect neither more nor less.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
You will own nothing, and be happy. What are you going to do, rebel against the EU? \s
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sergiomattei 5y ago

I'm shocked how naive the DeFi industry was to think they could get away with little to no regulation. Tech doesn't rule the world. Old power structures are still in place.

ushakov 5y ago
DeFi was built with censorship resistance in mind EU can come up with new laws all day every day, but considering the technical detail, these laws will be impossible to enforce
- stavros 5y ago
  The laws will be trivial to enforce. Expect to be unable to exchange cryptocurrency (that you own in your wallet) to fiat, which will almost kill the cryptocurrency market for anything other than speculation. I expect a parallel, dark economy will still be around, where people transact with cryptocurrency and can only exchange it for cash.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    It will kill the speculative market. Their native use cases in their own systems will still be 100% viable. If someone uses for example bitcoin cash or miner as money as they're intended nobody can do a thing about it. For those people uninterested in off ramps this means little.
    - stavros 5y ago
      I use it as money as it's intended, to get paid for my work. The supermarket doesn't accept BTC, does that still make it 100% viable? You better believe I'm going to be paid in USD from now on.
      - betwixthewires 5y ago
        For those people who use it, yes.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  I'm not so sure. Unless an EU citizen wants to risk submitting a false tax return under penalty of perjury, any DeFi money that results in a profit has to be reported elsewhere. Your bank will probably also start to ask questions if you do enough DeFi activity. You can probably get away with small transactions, but is it honestly worth the risk? I don't see this law as impossible to enforce, but rather, difficult to enforce. The government will still try, and most likely succeed in catching several institutions that don't comply. Governments don't actually need thorough enforcement for laws to be effective. Being easily capable of breaking a law does not mean that the law is unenforceable.
programmarchy 5y ago
Old power structures get replaced by new tech; politics is downstream from technology. Banning exchanges may actually accelerate the transition to decentralized finance.

Barrin92 5y ago

>nobody asked them for this I very much support the policy. Anonymous money pretty much serves one thing uniquely well which is avoiding the law, sanctions, laundering money, buying drugs or funding crime and I don't think any society has interest in having these markets exist outside of the purview of the state.

ushakov 5y ago
would you also support banning words? it's apparent, that money launderers, drug buyers, criminals communicate using words
- Barrin92 5y ago
  What kind of strawman is that? I didn't say I want to get rid of all forms of digital payments, I'm perfectly fine with any form of digital payment system if it is able to comply with basic due diligence required by the law. Anonymous payments stand out in that their only distinguishing advantage is that they make that impossible. I don't want to ban words and I don't want to ban money. But society very well can demand that there is no shadow financial system that avoids obligations everyone else has to comply with.
  - ushakov 5y ago
    society and the EU are welcome to demand whatever they want! :) the ugly truth is that they have no power over the bitcoin network and their ideas will not reach consensus from miners that's why they're to attacking the middlemen instead
    - phatfish 5y ago
      Bitcoin has no power in the real world. For digital transactions is has some leverage as pure data is much harder to control. Unless people are spending their Bitcoin gainz on Second Life property and not real world assets then regulation targeting the "middle men" is simply common sense. Crypto is trivial for a functioning government to regulate, until we all live in the Matrix.

dogma1138 5y ago

They don’t need to go after the protocol they can simply put legislation to regulate how exchanges and other services that allow you to trade and easily transfer digital currency operate.

mdoms 5y ago

> nobody asked them for this I'm in favour of regulating and tracing cryptocurrency. I don't think people should be able to sell kiddie porn, bribe officials, scam innocent people or launder money with impunity. I think lots of people would agree with me.

boredwithlife 5y ago
People should be able to transact business among themselves without the government knowing. The ugly comes with the good. It's part of life, personal responsibility.
pennaMan 5y ago
Criminals by definition do not care how many laws and regulations a honest person has to deal or wrongly go to prison for.