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You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders, not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets. That does

You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders, not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets. That does not ban cryptography, that just forces people to declare their wallets.

darig 5y ago
People don't own wallets... whoever holds the private key owns the coins. If I don't have the key memorized or on my person, I don't own anything.
arthurcolle 5y ago
This is completely unenforceable.
- ben_w 5y ago
  For small amounts; large amounts tend to get noticed by what they end up buying, and that’s probably what they care about.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  It's very enforceable, in a practical sense, for the majority of holders. Most people use services to exchange crypto for fiat. If you're in the EU, and use any such services, expect changes. For the people that it isn't enforceable for, they're stuck either moving countries, hodling eternally, or laundering the cash they get in return for their crypto assets.
- vkou 5y ago
  It's perfectly enforceable by asking exchanges to do KYC. Yes, you'll be able to break the law if you turn to a hawala payment system, but I can also break the law against murder by hiring a hitman. That doesn't mean laws against murder are completely uneforceable.
  - nly 5y ago
    Exchanges already do KYC but they don't generally ask you to explain all the crypto transactions that lead to your deposit
gambiting 5y ago
I mean, you are allowed to take up to 10k euro in cash with you across borders without reporting it(in the EU anyway), so there is a provision in the law for "small" amounts of money. There is nothing like that here - even if you want to use crypto to send someone 1 euro for something, you will have to register.
- nly 5y ago
  The 10K limit is just there to reduce admin cost. A Blockchain can be datained continuously at almost no cost
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    Call me paranoid but I think governments of the 21st century ultimately want the ability to track every single transaction they can.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      Governments of every century wanted that. They just didn’t have the means before.
    - chippiewill 5y ago
      If you're worried about that then Bitcoin isn't for you. It's not just Governments, anyone can see _every_ transaction as it's in the public ledger.
      - gruez 5y ago
        If that's the case why would they need these regulations? Is the whole exercise just bEUcrats trying to trying to justify their existence?
      - BitwiseFool 5y ago
        I'm aware that full ledger visibility is a fundamental part of Bitcoin. I'm actually more concerned that the governments and central banks of the world will push for near total traceability with their own currencies. Whether that comes in the form of "GovCoins" or reporting requirements, I do not know. But I think it is practically inevitable.
monkeydust 5y ago
Yea I think that's what they are proposing. If your in the EU and move crypto around then you have to register your wallet with you PII with some EU authority?
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  A crypto wallet doesn’t have a location though. It exists simultaneously on every connected node.
  - api 5y ago
    The location is where the secret key is stored. Wallet data is distributed but wallet holders are not. In any case this kind of thing will be implemented by mandating it at the exchanges where crypto is converted to/from traditional currencies, making it impossible to actually use crypto (legally) without complying.
    - AmericanChopper 5y ago
      That definition of location allows for: * The wallet existing in no places * The wallet existing in an unlimited number of places * The wallet spontaneously replicating itself in a new location (with or without information transfer) Certainly not a very mainstream interpretation of “location”.
    - aledalgrande 5y ago
      There are other systems to exchange fiat for crypto, including but not limited to in person transactions and peer to peer marketplaces.
      - monkeydust 5y ago
        Peer to peer as in DEXs such as uniswap, sushiswap? They will be more challenging to regulate for sure. I kinda see this regulation and others coming as a way for authorities to keep control of current financial establishment...hence also lot of talk about central bank coins ...very interesting to see how this plays out in next 5yrs
gruez 5y ago
> You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders Right, because it's generally recognized that countries have the right to protect their borders > not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets Are you exempt from this if you don't make cross-border transactions? Would it be constitutional for the EU to make a rule that you can't have undeclared cash wallets? > That does not ban cryptography, that just forces people to declare their wallets. In the strict sense you're correct. However, I would counter with saying that this isn't a "ban on cryptography" in the same sense recent proposals for key escrow (eg. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/as-doj-calls-for-responsible-encryption-expert-asks-responsible-to-whom/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/as-doj-calls-for...) isn't "a ban on cryptopgrahy". However, the end result is the same: you won't be allowed to practice cryptography unless you also give up your secrets to the government.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
  It’s possible to demonstrate control of a wallet without giving the secrets to the government.
  - gruez 5y ago
    Your cryptographic identity is arguably a secret in addition to whatever the private key is.

darig 5y ago

People don't own wallets... whoever holds the private key owns the coins. If I don't have the key memorized or on my person, I don't own anything.

arthurcolle 5y ago

This is completely unenforceable.

ben_w 5y ago
For small amounts; large amounts tend to get noticed by what they end up buying, and that’s probably what they care about.
BobbyJo 5y ago
It's very enforceable, in a practical sense, for the majority of holders. Most people use services to exchange crypto for fiat. If you're in the EU, and use any such services, expect changes. For the people that it isn't enforceable for, they're stuck either moving countries, hodling eternally, or laundering the cash they get in return for their crypto assets.
vkou 5y ago
It's perfectly enforceable by asking exchanges to do KYC. Yes, you'll be able to break the law if you turn to a hawala payment system, but I can also break the law against murder by hiring a hitman. That doesn't mean laws against murder are completely uneforceable.
- nly 5y ago
  Exchanges already do KYC but they don't generally ask you to explain all the crypto transactions that lead to your deposit

gambiting 5y ago

I mean, you are allowed to take up to 10k euro in cash with you across borders without reporting it(in the EU anyway), so there is a provision in the law for "small" amounts of money. There is nothing like that here - even if you want to use crypto to send someone 1 euro for something, you will have to register.

nly 5y ago
The 10K limit is just there to reduce admin cost. A Blockchain can be datained continuously at almost no cost
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  Call me paranoid but I think governments of the 21st century ultimately want the ability to track every single transaction they can.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    Governments of every century wanted that. They just didn’t have the means before.
  - chippiewill 5y ago
    If you're worried about that then Bitcoin isn't for you. It's not just Governments, anyone can see _every_ transaction as it's in the public ledger.
    - gruez 5y ago
      If that's the case why would they need these regulations? Is the whole exercise just bEUcrats trying to trying to justify their existence?
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      I'm aware that full ledger visibility is a fundamental part of Bitcoin. I'm actually more concerned that the governments and central banks of the world will push for near total traceability with their own currencies. Whether that comes in the form of "GovCoins" or reporting requirements, I do not know. But I think it is practically inevitable.

monkeydust 5y ago

Yea I think that's what they are proposing. If your in the EU and move crypto around then you have to register your wallet with you PII with some EU authority?

AmericanChopper 5y ago
A crypto wallet doesn’t have a location though. It exists simultaneously on every connected node.
- api 5y ago
  The location is where the secret key is stored. Wallet data is distributed but wallet holders are not. In any case this kind of thing will be implemented by mandating it at the exchanges where crypto is converted to/from traditional currencies, making it impossible to actually use crypto (legally) without complying.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    That definition of location allows for: * The wallet existing in no places * The wallet existing in an unlimited number of places * The wallet spontaneously replicating itself in a new location (with or without information transfer) Certainly not a very mainstream interpretation of “location”.
  - aledalgrande 5y ago
    There are other systems to exchange fiat for crypto, including but not limited to in person transactions and peer to peer marketplaces.
    - monkeydust 5y ago
      Peer to peer as in DEXs such as uniswap, sushiswap? They will be more challenging to regulate for sure. I kinda see this regulation and others coming as a way for authorities to keep control of current financial establishment...hence also lot of talk about central bank coins ...very interesting to see how this plays out in next 5yrs

gruez 5y ago

> You're already not allowed to move undeclared cash across borders Right, because it's generally recognized that countries have the right to protect their borders > not sure why you can't have a rule that you can't have undeclared crypto wallets Are you exempt from this if you don't make cross-border transactions? Would it be constitutional for the EU to make a rule that you can't have undeclared cash wallets? > That does not ban cryptography, that just forces people to declare their wallets. In the strict sense you're correct. However, I would counter with saying that this isn't a "ban on cryptography" in the same sense recent proposals for key escrow (eg. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/as-doj-calls-for-responsible-encryption-expert-asks-responsible-to-whom/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/as-doj-calls-for...) isn't "a ban on cryptopgrahy". However, the end result is the same: you won't be allowed to practice cryptography unless you also give up your secrets to the government.

the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
It’s possible to demonstrate control of a wallet without giving the secrets to the government.
- gruez 5y ago
  Your cryptographic identity is arguably a secret in addition to whatever the private key is.