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I feel the same way when software developers call themselves engineers.

comeonseriously 5y ago
What if we have engineering degrees? That change anything? Edit: That being said, depending on who I am talking to it ranges from "I do computers" to "I am a computer programmer", and very rarely use "engineer" unless I am referring to my actual degree (BSCpE).
- guerrilla 5y ago
  If you had a biology degree and were a mailman, would you call your profession 'biologist'? No. That's absurd, as is calling people who write JavaScript, most of whom don't even have computer science degrees, engineers. It's nothing but grandiosity and ignorance of what engineering is.
- Cu3PO42 5y ago
  In Germany, and presumably many other countries, "engineer" is a job title that requires a certain degree. As in, you need to have such and such degree if you want to advertise yourself as an engineer. The B.Sc. and M.Sc. in computer science are actually amongst those degrees that allow you to call yourself an engineer. If I remember correctly, my diploma specifically says "This diploma permits you to use the job title 'engineer'." (loosely translated). Of course, the legal definitions are unrelated to whether or not it's sensible to use that title. Honestly, I think it depends on the kind of programming you're doing. If you're designing new systems, for example, it seems to fit.
- jcun4128 5y ago
  Yeah that one I struggle with too. I don't have a degree/can't call myself an engineer but my contract/pay is for Sr. SWE which I also don't consider myself a Sr. so idk... Generally go with SWD. Granted in my job it's so strict/refined... tech designs, unit/visual regression testing/QA/TA that sort of thing... it's not like I can just write code on the fly/release it out there without it going through the tests and several people. I'm definitely not the caliber of a developer that thinks of tasks in Log N or something. Least path algos and what not I'm a typical dev and I'm alright with that ultimately I am a tinkerer and end goal is FIRE.
echelon 5y ago
Does your work involve research, measurement, planning, architecture, review, and instrumentation? Are you using math to plan capacities and growth rates? Do you push your services to 1000k+ QPS of sustained traffic to see how it handles or falls over? Are you developing DR scenarios and training people and performing live exercises? Designing systems to fail open or closed appropriately, to gracefully handle missing dependencies, not cause a thundering herd upon restart, etc.? Are you performing security analysis, STRIDE, etc.? Is your data model active-active, have redundantly striped caching, and use vector clock consolidation, consensus? This skill set is software engineering. It's not configuring a Drupal or Wordpress install. Don't downplay it.
mavhc 5y ago
If your software can kill people you'd better be an engineer
dhosek 5y ago
In certain industries, the titles often have little to do with the work. In banking, it seems, everyone is a vice president (I had a moment of panic when I had a job offer from a bank as a programmer and the offer said that I would be hired as a vice president). In publishing, everyone is an editor. The title managing editor generally has no editorial duties—it's largely dealing with the administrative/business duties of the publication(s). But since it's mostly English majors working in publishing, it makes them feel better to have editor in their job title. So I have no qualms about having "engineer" in my job title, even if I still view myself as a programmer (I'm still not accustomed to having "senior" in my job title even though I've been a programmer longer than some of the readers of this comment have been alive).
- airstrike 5y ago
  Interestingly, in banking one gets promoted from Vice President to Director which is the exact opposite as anywhere else...
liketochill 5y ago
Certainly some software is engineered! Maybe the software in space ships is a good example where it was written with an engineering process, tested, and then worked “first try”. Of course a lot of software these days is morally bankrupt and never finished.
marssaxman 5y ago
I generally agree with you, but we don't have a better term, and it's not completely wrong. I think you have to consider it as something of a homonym. The people who drive trains are also called "engineers", after all, though their job has nothing to do with engineering in either the software-engineering sense or the civil/mechanical/electrical engineering sense.
dang 5y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27894728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27894728.

What if we have engineering degrees? That change anything? Edit: That being said, depending on who I am talking to it ranges from "I do computers" to "I am a computer programmer", and very rarely use "engineer" unless I am referring to my actual degree (BSCpE).

guerrilla 5y ago
If you had a biology degree and were a mailman, would you call your profession 'biologist'? No. That's absurd, as is calling people who write JavaScript, most of whom don't even have computer science degrees, engineers. It's nothing but grandiosity and ignorance of what engineering is.
Cu3PO42 5y ago
In Germany, and presumably many other countries, "engineer" is a job title that requires a certain degree. As in, you need to have such and such degree if you want to advertise yourself as an engineer. The B.Sc. and M.Sc. in computer science are actually amongst those degrees that allow you to call yourself an engineer. If I remember correctly, my diploma specifically says "This diploma permits you to use the job title 'engineer'." (loosely translated). Of course, the legal definitions are unrelated to whether or not it's sensible to use that title. Honestly, I think it depends on the kind of programming you're doing. If you're designing new systems, for example, it seems to fit.
jcun4128 5y ago
Yeah that one I struggle with too. I don't have a degree/can't call myself an engineer but my contract/pay is for Sr. SWE which I also don't consider myself a Sr. so idk... Generally go with SWD. Granted in my job it's so strict/refined... tech designs, unit/visual regression testing/QA/TA that sort of thing... it's not like I can just write code on the fly/release it out there without it going through the tests and several people. I'm definitely not the caliber of a developer that thinks of tasks in Log N or something. Least path algos and what not I'm a typical dev and I'm alright with that ultimately I am a tinkerer and end goal is FIRE.

echelon 5y ago

Does your work involve research, measurement, planning, architecture, review, and instrumentation? Are you using math to plan capacities and growth rates? Do you push your services to 1000k+ QPS of sustained traffic to see how it handles or falls over? Are you developing DR scenarios and training people and performing live exercises? Designing systems to fail open or closed appropriately, to gracefully handle missing dependencies, not cause a thundering herd upon restart, etc.? Are you performing security analysis, STRIDE, etc.? Is your data model active-active, have redundantly striped caching, and use vector clock consolidation, consensus? This skill set is software engineering. It's not configuring a Drupal or Wordpress install. Don't downplay it.

mavhc 5y ago

If your software can kill people you'd better be an engineer

dhosek 5y ago

In certain industries, the titles often have little to do with the work. In banking, it seems, everyone is a vice president (I had a moment of panic when I had a job offer from a bank as a programmer and the offer said that I would be hired as a vice president). In publishing, everyone is an editor. The title managing editor generally has no editorial duties—it's largely dealing with the administrative/business duties of the publication(s). But since it's mostly English majors working in publishing, it makes them feel better to have editor in their job title. So I have no qualms about having "engineer" in my job title, even if I still view myself as a programmer (I'm still not accustomed to having "senior" in my job title even though I've been a programmer longer than some of the readers of this comment have been alive).

airstrike 5y ago
Interestingly, in banking one gets promoted from Vice President to Director which is the exact opposite as anywhere else...

liketochill 5y ago

Certainly some software is engineered! Maybe the software in space ships is a good example where it was written with an engineering process, tested, and then worked “first try”. Of course a lot of software these days is morally bankrupt and never finished.

marssaxman 5y ago

I generally agree with you, but we don't have a better term, and it's not completely wrong. I think you have to consider it as something of a homonym. The people who drive trains are also called "engineers", after all, though their job has nothing to do with engineering in either the software-engineering sense or the civil/mechanical/electrical engineering sense.

dang 5y ago

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27894728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27894728.