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> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If th

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will make the rest suffer. Hate calls for win-lose deals and an unproductive zero sum mentality. Hungarian business will suffer, and Hungarian workers will suffer. That is not sustainable long term. EU can be improved, but if millions of citizens support a far-right government there is little to be done. Orbán is a problem, but that people follows him is another one. It will only make Hungary poorer and the EU poorer and more dangerous.

hyper_dynamics 5y ago
They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge
- pmontra 5y ago
  I don't recommended this scenario but: the other states could join a new union and leave Hungary and possibly other states outside (the usual split into a good company and a bad one.) Lots of legal disputes but in international law the strongest party always makes the law and shrugs problems away. BTW, is it rouge (as in French for red) or rogue?
  - Darmody 5y ago
    No, they can't make a new union, that's just stupid. It took decades to build the EU as it is now. Building something new isn't feasible. Just look at the Brexit shitshow and that was only a country leaving. And besides that, the EU has never been about controlling national governments. The common values thing it's something new they brought to the table because they want to expand their powers.
    - trasz 5y ago
      In case of Poland the only value being forced by the EU is not breaking Poland’s own constitution. Which is required for any kind of reliable business, which, in turn, is pretty central to fundamental purpose of the EU.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    It's Rogue. Common misspelling :)
  - peteretep 5y ago
    Or they could just develop decent sanctions and enforce them. Hungary is a massive net recipient of EU funds, which seems a great starting lever, plus throw just the smallest amount of friction into their Schengen status, and you've got something pretty potent there.
- mlang23 5y ago
  Why, exactly? For not kissing the rainbow flag? Or for opposing illegal immigration? Those are the topics presented through media lately, and the argument is rather weak. In fact, I think many politically centered people dont actually sympathize with this "you are not hip enough, you have to leave"-mentality.
  - pell 5y ago
    I am really not sure where this notion is coming from and I've seen it repeated in this thread multiple times now. The reason Orban's government is considered dangerous within the EU context has never been because of his stance on immigration or that he "doesn't kiss the rainbow flag". The problem is that his government has been attacking and dismantling democratic institutions such as academia, the media, NGOs and even the judiciary to some extend. The critique and this development started long before the refugee situation in 2015. This has really nothing to do with immigration or LGTBQ policy. A number of EU countries are not really champions of immigration or LGTBQ+ matters either (Slowakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece). This idea that the issue is about him or his government not being "hip" or "woke" enough is really odd to say the least.
  - bjoli 5y ago
    The recent politicising the courts, and the political aftermath, is bad enough to warrant serious action from the EU. Orban has had undemocratic tendencies for a long time, and his blatant misuse of power has had all spectrums of the political field concerned since we'll before the 2015 EU migration crisis.
  - 3np 5y ago
    While there's a fair amount of hypocrisy from other countries going on, the core issues are more about human rights and fascism than about hipness.
  - Twixes 5y ago
    The government calling people subhuman simply because of what gender they prefer or feel like is far more twisted than some "not kissing the rainbow flag", and that's what's happening in Hungary or Poland receiving huge EU subsidies.
- majgr 5y ago
  Orban will vote easily against Poland just when he is guaranteed that he gets money from after-COVID fund. Maybe that is why EU are withholding Hungary spend plan for this fund.
roenxi 5y ago
> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how rational people might have ended up here. I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. People get radicalised when it becomes obvious that politics as usual is not going to work out well for them. There are cases where the cause is lost and there is an intransigent radical group. Usually there is a long lead up to that of a group who is systemically not having their needs met. It is totally correct that hate leads to win-lose deals. That seems like a very reasonable option to people if the alternative loving approach is a win-lose deal but with the winners and losers reversed.
- WanderPanda 5y ago
  How can win-lose (lets say in the expected value) deals exist when the participants are free to partake or abstain from the deal?
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    In this context, they meant to say "outcome", not "deal". However, win-lose deals can indeed happen, although they're rather rare. Consider the example of diminsmished agency, e.g a fentanyl addict "choosing" to buy more fentanyl. Or consider agency conflicts of interests or information asymmetries as examples where deals can turn out to be win-lose.
- zpeti 5y ago
  The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally totally different type of person, doesn't mean that that is normal or "good". Orban is using these emotions for his own purposes. That's true. But it's not Orban that is creating these issues, or the concerns about them.
NicoJuicy 5y ago
As far as I'm aware ( source Hungarian people), entire families voted for him because he was strongly opposing migrants. All the other shit he does, they deem less important. It's ridiculous. Hungary should go out of the EU or be forced out. The lack of obeying rules and abusing subsidies for own gain should be enough reason. Hungarians should outweigh pro's and cons, it's already a decade...
- bb101 5y ago
  I think Hungary should be very much kept in the EU, so the EU can continue to exert its influence. The funding taps should be turned off however, and only turned on again subject to demonstrable and verified improvements.
deleted 5y ago
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afshin 5y ago
> The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will make the rest suffer. This pattern is attenuated when there's a reliable external source of energy. Hungary is not a closed system that will decay into entropy. It has regular funding from the EU which allows the disequilibrium to continue.
deleted 5y ago
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hyper_dynamics 5y ago

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

pmontra 5y ago
I don't recommended this scenario but: the other states could join a new union and leave Hungary and possibly other states outside (the usual split into a good company and a bad one.) Lots of legal disputes but in international law the strongest party always makes the law and shrugs problems away. BTW, is it rouge (as in French for red) or rogue?
- Darmody 5y ago
  No, they can't make a new union, that's just stupid. It took decades to build the EU as it is now. Building something new isn't feasible. Just look at the Brexit shitshow and that was only a country leaving. And besides that, the EU has never been about controlling national governments. The common values thing it's something new they brought to the table because they want to expand their powers.
  - trasz 5y ago
    In case of Poland the only value being forced by the EU is not breaking Poland’s own constitution. Which is required for any kind of reliable business, which, in turn, is pretty central to fundamental purpose of the EU.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  It's Rogue. Common misspelling :)
- peteretep 5y ago
  Or they could just develop decent sanctions and enforce them. Hungary is a massive net recipient of EU funds, which seems a great starting lever, plus throw just the smallest amount of friction into their Schengen status, and you've got something pretty potent there.
mlang23 5y ago
Why, exactly? For not kissing the rainbow flag? Or for opposing illegal immigration? Those are the topics presented through media lately, and the argument is rather weak. In fact, I think many politically centered people dont actually sympathize with this "you are not hip enough, you have to leave"-mentality.
- pell 5y ago
  I am really not sure where this notion is coming from and I've seen it repeated in this thread multiple times now. The reason Orban's government is considered dangerous within the EU context has never been because of his stance on immigration or that he "doesn't kiss the rainbow flag". The problem is that his government has been attacking and dismantling democratic institutions such as academia, the media, NGOs and even the judiciary to some extend. The critique and this development started long before the refugee situation in 2015. This has really nothing to do with immigration or LGTBQ policy. A number of EU countries are not really champions of immigration or LGTBQ+ matters either (Slowakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece). This idea that the issue is about him or his government not being "hip" or "woke" enough is really odd to say the least.
- bjoli 5y ago
  The recent politicising the courts, and the political aftermath, is bad enough to warrant serious action from the EU. Orban has had undemocratic tendencies for a long time, and his blatant misuse of power has had all spectrums of the political field concerned since we'll before the 2015 EU migration crisis.
- 3np 5y ago
  While there's a fair amount of hypocrisy from other countries going on, the core issues are more about human rights and fascism than about hipness.
- Twixes 5y ago
  The government calling people subhuman simply because of what gender they prefer or feel like is far more twisted than some "not kissing the rainbow flag", and that's what's happening in Hungary or Poland receiving huge EU subsidies.
majgr 5y ago
Orban will vote easily against Poland just when he is guaranteed that he gets money from after-COVID fund. Maybe that is why EU are withholding Hungary spend plan for this fund.

roenxi 5y ago

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how rational people might have ended up here. I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. People get radicalised when it becomes obvious that politics as usual is not going to work out well for them. There are cases where the cause is lost and there is an intransigent radical group. Usually there is a long lead up to that of a group who is systemically not having their needs met. It is totally correct that hate leads to win-lose deals. That seems like a very reasonable option to people if the alternative loving approach is a win-lose deal but with the winners and losers reversed.

WanderPanda 5y ago
How can win-lose (lets say in the expected value) deals exist when the participants are free to partake or abstain from the deal?
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  In this context, they meant to say "outcome", not "deal". However, win-lose deals can indeed happen, although they're rather rare. Consider the example of diminsmished agency, e.g a fentanyl addict "choosing" to buy more fentanyl. Or consider agency conflicts of interests or information asymmetries as examples where deals can turn out to be win-lose.
zpeti 5y ago
The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally totally different type of person, doesn't mean that that is normal or "good". Orban is using these emotions for his own purposes. That's true. But it's not Orban that is creating these issues, or the concerns about them.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

As far as I'm aware ( source Hungarian people), entire families voted for him because he was strongly opposing migrants. All the other shit he does, they deem less important. It's ridiculous. Hungary should go out of the EU or be forced out. The lack of obeying rules and abusing subsidies for own gain should be enough reason. Hungarians should outweigh pro's and cons, it's already a decade...

bb101 5y ago
I think Hungary should be very much kept in the EU, so the EU can continue to exert its influence. The funding taps should be turned off however, and only turned on again subject to demonstrable and verified improvements.

deleted 5y ago

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afshin 5y ago

> The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will make the rest suffer. This pattern is attenuated when there's a reliable external source of energy. Hungary is not a closed system that will decay into entropy. It has regular funding from the EU which allows the disequilibrium to continue.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]