23 ms·

I recently had the privilege of trying to do the right thing when I identified fraudulent research carried out by an institution in Austria. The initial respons

I recently had the privilege of trying to do the right thing when I identified fraudulent research carried out by an institution in Austria. The initial response of the institution was positive but when I pressed for further details on how such things could happen suddenly nobody anymore would take my call. The research was paid for by a private company to pimp a nonsense product. The research was never published in a research journal but it didn't stop the company using the name of the university alonside exerpts from the paper in marketing material alongside gushing claims of "proved by science". The company threatened to sue me and the university threatened me as well. Neither has followed through on threats. The company wants to keep selling their rubbish magnetic health ding ding and I assume the university wants nobody to look into how positive results for the product came out of their institution. Allround an education on how the real world works.

birdyrooster 5y ago
I guess if you don't even feel comfortable sharing the identity of any of the parties, we really have no chance to identify bad actors from good as a community.
- injidup 5y ago
  https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie-der-universitat-salzburg https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie... I actually bought one of the devices and took it apart on video. There is nothing inside except 4 magnets and a plastic printed card. No active circuits and no power source and no components such as resistors or capacitors and certainly there is no microchip inside. edit below are links to pictures of the device and accompanying text as originally on facebook posted ======================================= Hi Powerinsole I ordered one of your power chip devices and took a detailed look at it. My analyses is as follows. 1. There is no battery and no system for harvesting energy. All electronic circuits require an energy source and a lack of an obvious system for powering the device is a problem. 2. There are no components such as integrated circuits, transistors, capacitors, diodes or inductive devices that would be required to create a "circuit" or "chip". A "chip" is not just a random configuration of tracks. The tracks are there to transfer electricity between components that shape and switch the electric current according to purpose but given that there are no components what are the tracks for? 3. There are 4 magnets. Probably neodymium. They produce a constant magnetic field. They do not generate "frequencies". The device sticks to a metal wall like a fridge magnet and doesn't vibrate. 5. The tracks are configured in such a way that even if components were attached at the "solder points" nothing would happen because the tracks are all shorted together. Electricity always takes the easiest path. If all the tracks are are shorted then the components will receive no energy input. 6. After testing with a multimeter I found that the tracks on the "circuit board" do not conduct electricity. If the tracks do not conduct electricity there is no possibility of transferring energy to components. ( there are no components ) 7. The magnets are isolated from the "tracks" and each other by a plastic layer and glue. It is not clear what the relationship the position of the magnets to the tracks might be. 8. There is no NVRAM, magnetic storage, optical storage, ROMs or other known systems for storing information. So claims from PowerInsole that they load information onto the device is difficult to comprehend. 9. There is no crystal or LC circuit to drive an oscillator. Even if there was there is no battery to drive it and the tracks are all shorted and the tracks do not conduct electricity. Given the above observations I find it difficult to believe that the device can function as advertised. What you essentially have is 4 small magnets on a printed card in a gel cushion for 69 euros. If I am wrong about any of the above I would be happy to have a respectful and open discussion about your technology. https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163585013_10159594521424203_6934009271193208553_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=PA3Ximv76QEAX-4UVHb&tn=2GqubM3xHGE4RwnY&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=4815887b32ff69023971b6c087ca6a5e&oe=60FA56D6 https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163585013_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163740448_10159594521779203_136754634427714199_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=pF1ZeiPHaD0AX9Xu7ON&tn=2GqubM3xHGE4RwnY&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=088db43f0fcb8d8d70494b487ed82f1d&oe=60FBBFAD https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163740448_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164072709_10159594522179203_3139869476428661360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=8qzT_wf-gGAAX_yfa7Y&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=3f418250a489108b6d7dfe4e4ee60abd&oe=60FB64CA https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164072709_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164005668_10159594574679203_6347388532427347427_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=jr4XO4IW-rEAX-NAEA8&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=53909ec266de1dff59d3bba3e1e19919&oe=60FB063D https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164005668_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164045289_10159594575179203_1420688379258392817_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=6bxIGxK31BUAX9g-Vbn&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=97e5a1441f40482e77a3393e7111bd7e&oe=60FAACFA https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164045289_1...
  - uhhyeahdude 5y ago
    Thank you. What a load of infomercial buzzword nonsense. The last part about some “further research and experience” showing even better results if the product is worn all the time is especially galling.
    - injidup 5y ago
      But one should look into Darsch Scientific if you want to get deeper into how this is all organised. https://www.dartsch-scientific.com/en/ https://www.dartsch-scientific.com/en/ they have produced papers for powerinsole and are used by other companies in the magnetic magic industry to provide a veneer of scientific credibility. For example https://waveguard.com/en/studies/ https://waveguard.com/en/studies/
      - janekm 5y ago
        Kind of hilarious how they submitted what looks like a passive coil for FCC certification ;)
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    They had me at the work "power insole". Though I guess not in a good way. I expect a fairly meticulous definition of terms. If a piece of research sets off my marketing-BS sensors this early, it's usually all downhill from there.
  - yarcob 5y ago
    Somehow I'm not surprised the University of Salzburg is involved. I remember a "less than stellar" experience with them that I was tangentially involved with. It involved a research project that they stopped funding, but didn't want to let go. The only researcher who continued to work on the project wanted to take the project to a different institution where the project could get funding, but Uni Salzburg refused and said it's their project. They would rather have the project be abandoned than let it thrive somewhere else. If their name wasn't on the project anymore, they would rather have it die. And not to forget, Uni Salzburg was also home to our most famous case of scientific misconduct where Robert Schwarzenbacher fabricated measurements using simulation software. The handling of that case was also interesting (they terminated his employment after verifying the accusations of fraud, but one guy from the union tried to convince someone from HR to delay some paperwork so they could later challenge the termination... crazy stuff)
- javajosh 5y ago
  "Naming and shaming" comes with risk - probably a lot more risk than upside. The risk is that the parties get something actionable, kind of like "probable cause" in criminal cases. The upside is maybe a small effect on a few HN minds that might remember this when considering this Uni's reputation. The other risk is that it's an act that can easily be abused. It is very easy to level charges against someone without proof; somehow we tend to believe the first salvo (myself included). In this case it sounds relatively straight-forward, but it really is irresponsible to take a stranger's word for it. So, if you really care, you might reach out to the OP and get the details. That eliminates the downside risk to the OP and acts as a shibboleth that ensure only people that actually care enough to look into it know the details.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    Yes, that is why you would expect their claim to be corroborated with (even circumstantial) evidence when dropping names.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dcow 5y ago
    It also might potentially identify the person posting the comments which if pseudonymity is important might contribute to the calculus.
    - birdyrooster 5y ago
      For a second I considered that I was arguing the same as a spook trying to unmask
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dqpb 5y ago
Can you be sued for asking questions?
- Ajay-p 5y ago
  IANAL but my gut tells me no, unless you're in a place like Russia, North Korea, China, most of the Middle East, parts of Africa and Latin America, and some parts of the former Soviet Bloc. In western nations, you might get arrested for asking questions if it upsets the powers that be and they deem you a nuisance.
  - White_Wolf 5y ago
    In UK you have a chance to end up with a "hate crime" if you don't follow the official line of (no)thinking(with a low change of being arrested). Pretty crazy stuff going on lately(past few years).
    - peteretep 5y ago
      Are you confused that a “question” can be a hate crime? Seems pretty straight-forward to me?
      - ghoward 5y ago
        Asking "What's your birth sex?" might end up being a "hate crime" with the way things are going.
        AlexMoffat 5y ago
        For what possible reason are you asking that question of anyone?
        kxkdkkf 5y ago
        Well, maybe you own a waxing salon that does Brazilian waxes and you're Muslim and don't believe you should see or be in contact with male genitalia besides that of your husband. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv > In 2018, Yaniv filed discrimination complaints with the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal against multiple waxing salons alleging that they refused to provide genital waxing to her because she is transgender.[15][16] Yaniv's case was the first major case of alleged transgender discrimination in retail in Canada.[17] Yaniv was seeking as much as $15,000 in damages from each beautician.[18] In their defence, estheticians said they lacked training on waxing male genitalia and they were not comfortable doing so for personal or religious reasons.[19] They further argued that being transgender was not the issue for them, rather having male genitalia was.[20] Yaniv rejected the claim that special training in waxing male genitalia was necessary,[21] and during the hearings equated the denial of the service to neo-Nazism.[22][16] Respondents were typically working from home, were non-white,[23] and were immigrants[24] who did not speak English. Two of the businesses were forced to shut down due to the complaints.[25] Just one example..
OriginalNebula 5y ago
Did you contact Arbeiterkammer, VKI or Peter Kolba?
- injidup 5y ago
  I contacted and spoke at length with the Austrian Kosumantenschutz. https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/konsumentenschutz/index.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/konsumentenschutz/ind... The product is clearly and at minimum a case of false advertising as there is nothing approaching a computer chip inside. However and though sympathetic the KS/AK said they couldn't do anything and couldn't refer me to anybody who could. I found this rather surprising.
  - OriginalNebula 5y ago
    Try to contact the other two. You can reach Peter Kolba here https://www.verbraucherschutzverein.at/Kontakt/ https://www.verbraucherschutzverein.at/Kontakt/ or on Twitter even https://twitter.com/KolbaPeter https://twitter.com/KolbaPeter. He won the case against Volkswagen so if anyone can help you then him. The University of Salzburg also has a "Ethikkommission" https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniversitaere-gremien/ethikkommission/ https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniv... and "Kommission zur Sicherung guter wissenschaftlicher Praxis" https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniversitaere-gremien/kommission-neu/ https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniv...
    - injidup 5y ago
      Thankyou for the tip. I'Ll look into it tomorrow.
      - OriginalNebula 5y ago
        No, thank you! Austria has a weird thing with pseudoscience scams [0][1][2] and it needs to be dealt with. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belebtes_Wasser https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belebtes_Wasser [1] The current Minister of Economy was working as an "energizer" https://www.diepresse.com/5395317/wirtschaftsministerin-schrambock-war-energetikerin https://www.diepresse.com/5395317/wirtschaftsministerin-schr... [2] During the construction of a hospital in Vienna, an "energetic" ring was built around the construction site for 95000 Euro. https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000076199184/krankenhaus-wien-nord-95-000-euro-fuer-energetischen-schutzring https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000076199184/krankenhaus-w... among others
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
I have a personal philosophy on most health oriented fads: if someone is actively trying to sell something, it's snake oil. Too many people are looking for everlasting life that they're okay with being swindled in the pursuit of it. Naive enough to believe that people are honest when promoting products they're were paid to promote.
- bserge 5y ago
  You can pair it with: if it works, it's controlled. Meaning you can't get it without prescription and have to go through the tortures of a health "care" system.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    This needs to end. I would take a pharmaceutical/drug related test (administered through the state), and it could be comprehensive; If I could renew my long term prescriptions. The pharmacist wants to see a blood panel before refilling, fine, I should be able to order one. (Only on long term medications (Blood pressure, diabetes, and most psychiatric drugs within reason) , and never antibiotics)
    - bluGill 5y ago
      While I agree with the sentiment, anyone on long term medication needs regular monitors by a doctor anyway. If you are only 25 this won't make sense, but by the time you get to 50 you need regular checkups for lots of things that are best caught early. I've lost enough family to colon cancer (spouse of a second cousin - can I even claim him as family?), and several others are only alive now because their cancer was caught in time. Then there is heart problems which again are best treated before the heart attack (if possible) - I just named the two most common killers of old people that you can be sure is in your family and coming to get you in the future (I know of exceptions - genetic disorders that will kill at 50 or so), but regular doctors visit can hold off.
      - hellbannedguy 5y ago
robomartin 5y ago
This is one of the problems I have with the absolute freak show that climate science/global-warming/saving-the-planet has become. It is, at a minimum, a triangle of bad actors with one corner being politicians --fear-based vote harvesting--, the second being business --jump on the bandwagon and print money...facilitated by politicians who want votes in exchange for fear mongering-- and, finally, religious-based detractors --using the best ignorance can offer in order to advanced humanity. You combine these three factors (and likely a few more) and the entire thing is a rotten stinking mess that exists on a binary state between religious deniers and religious zealots. What's a researcher to do? Tell the truth? Ha! Only if you want your career completely destroyed as well as never seeing even a hint of a grant. Going against these forces is a sure path to having more PhD's driving taxis. I have to say, I have become very cynical about what we call "science" these days. It seems you have to be very guarded about accepting anything you are told, because the forces at play could be beyond anyone's imagination in scale, breath and reach. The problem is that the general voting public is ill-equipped to take an intellectual stab at what they are being told, which means they are easily duped and herded like cattle in and direction that might be of benefit to the puppet masters in politics.
- SubiculumCode 5y ago
  Are you a scientist?
  - robomartin 5y ago
    > Are you a scientist? How is that relevant to my comment?
    - SubiculumCode 5y ago
      You suggest how scientists can act, their motivations, their freedom to disagree with the status quo, or those higher up the ladder in their field etc. You suggest how scientists will lose grants if they produce inconvenient science, etc etc. So I ask again. Are you a scientist? Have you written a grant application? Have you been punished? I AM a scientist, and I have never seen this hypothetical world.
menzoic 5y ago
It seems well intentioned, but I'm not surprised at all about the outcome. I don't think you can expect the institution to implicate themselves like that. You have to realize that preventing legal and financial liabilities is the #1 priority for institutions. Unfortunately this includes when they are wrong. Even if the employees are "good" their lawyers will advise them against providing any details like that and most are afraid of retaliation. Anyone asking questions like that is the enemy to them. This type of behavior is bad for society but fully expected giving the incentives and consequnces of telling the truth.
- nixpulvis 5y ago
  So what should be done? Hire your own lawyers to go after them pro bono? Write an article and send it to the papers? This kind of thing needs to be shamed and punished. While I agree that the institutions can be expected to cover there ass, there must be a course of action.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Monies paid for students education should be conditioned on not being skeevy and unethical. Basically just arrange the penalties such that outright fraud is effectively the death penalty for the institution and lesser malfeasance is still financially disastrous. Wait for one really good case and let the papers instead discuss how a century old institution collapsed.
  - h0l0cube 5y ago
    We just need a 'Yelp for research institutions'. Perhaps there already exists a global register tracking reputation like this? If so it needs to be visible (particularly to the press) and be properly vetted to have real consequence
    - zentiggr 5y ago
      Wow... pick an already known to be basically unethical organization as a possible solution to unethical behavior. Not that there's any way in our current culture to assemble a truly impartial reputation tracker, but surely we can do better than Yelp.
rob_c 5y ago
I get you wouldn't want to name the institute, but that is shocking.
- injidup 5y ago
  It's all on the public record anyway so. https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie-der-universitat-salzburg https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie... https://uni-salzburg.elsevierpure.com/de/projects/der-einfluss-des-einlage-pads-powerinsole-auf-die-hauttemperatur- https://uni-salzburg.elsevierpure.com/de/projects/der-einflu...
  - rob_c 5y ago
    Ouch. OK I'll start by saying I don't know the full details of the study. But those results and plots scream of PR to someone who works with data analysis for a living
Traf444 5y ago
From what I perceive one of the problems is funding. This is not strictly related to what you write and more about research in general, but most researchers seem to avoid submitting negative results. Disproving something can be just as important as proving something, but it is seen as a failure in most cases and can negatively impact your future funding. This leads some researchers to just hide their "failures" and some go as far as doctoring the results.
fock 5y ago
I have encountered a similar thing, with a university professor somehow supporting the finding that esoteric stickers are having an effect on patients, because they block EMF: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00190/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.0019... – this is bullshit (up to the measurement equipment supplied by the German EHS-community). I think at least the university should reprimand this people, how did you get in contact with the people threatening to sue? As I'm currently a grad student (in an unrelated field) I guess I could have some fun pushing this as academic discourse.
- injidup 5y ago
  Those threatening to sue were the founders of the company Powerinsole. They made contact via their lawyers. From the university I just had an ugly phone call with a senior administrator who suggested that if I ever contacted her again the police would be called.
jacquesm 5y ago
I've recently come across a 'for pay' report from a university as well that had holes in it the size of which you could drive a truck through, which was also used to establish claims of efficacy that were off the scale. This is probably quite common, and I really wonder why universities would lend their name to this kind of practice.
blagie 5y ago
MIT response (at least if PI is well-connected): Intimidation, NDA, non-disparage. Plenty of fraudulent information comes out of MIT. I'm pretty sure that's common to many of the elites. You don't get to be elite by being honest. Schools one tier down (e.g. large state schools) tend to be a lot better, but they're declining too.
adminscoffee 5y ago
this actually happens far to often with enough universities to make me uncomfortable. a lot of universities lack funding, even after government aid, which by the way influences what universities teach to a degree as well. i would love to see more transparency regarding funding with regards to scientific studies

birdyrooster 5y ago

I guess if you don't even feel comfortable sharing the identity of any of the parties, we really have no chance to identify bad actors from good as a community.

injidup 5y ago
https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie-der-universitat-salzburg https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie... I actually bought one of the devices and took it apart on video. There is nothing inside except 4 magnets and a plastic printed card. No active circuits and no power source and no components such as resistors or capacitors and certainly there is no microchip inside. edit below are links to pictures of the device and accompanying text as originally on facebook posted ======================================= Hi Powerinsole I ordered one of your power chip devices and took a detailed look at it. My analyses is as follows. 1. There is no battery and no system for harvesting energy. All electronic circuits require an energy source and a lack of an obvious system for powering the device is a problem. 2. There are no components such as integrated circuits, transistors, capacitors, diodes or inductive devices that would be required to create a "circuit" or "chip". A "chip" is not just a random configuration of tracks. The tracks are there to transfer electricity between components that shape and switch the electric current according to purpose but given that there are no components what are the tracks for? 3. There are 4 magnets. Probably neodymium. They produce a constant magnetic field. They do not generate "frequencies". The device sticks to a metal wall like a fridge magnet and doesn't vibrate. 5. The tracks are configured in such a way that even if components were attached at the "solder points" nothing would happen because the tracks are all shorted together. Electricity always takes the easiest path. If all the tracks are are shorted then the components will receive no energy input. 6. After testing with a multimeter I found that the tracks on the "circuit board" do not conduct electricity. If the tracks do not conduct electricity there is no possibility of transferring energy to components. ( there are no components ) 7. The magnets are isolated from the "tracks" and each other by a plastic layer and glue. It is not clear what the relationship the position of the magnets to the tracks might be. 8. There is no NVRAM, magnetic storage, optical storage, ROMs or other known systems for storing information. So claims from PowerInsole that they load information onto the device is difficult to comprehend. 9. There is no crystal or LC circuit to drive an oscillator. Even if there was there is no battery to drive it and the tracks are all shorted and the tracks do not conduct electricity. Given the above observations I find it difficult to believe that the device can function as advertised. What you essentially have is 4 small magnets on a printed card in a gel cushion for 69 euros. If I am wrong about any of the above I would be happy to have a respectful and open discussion about your technology. https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163585013_10159594521424203_6934009271193208553_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=PA3Ximv76QEAX-4UVHb&tn=2GqubM3xHGE4RwnY&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=4815887b32ff69023971b6c087ca6a5e&oe=60FA56D6 https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163585013_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163740448_10159594521779203_136754634427714199_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=pF1ZeiPHaD0AX9Xu7ON&tn=2GqubM3xHGE4RwnY&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=088db43f0fcb8d8d70494b487ed82f1d&oe=60FBBFAD https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/163740448_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164072709_10159594522179203_3139869476428661360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=8qzT_wf-gGAAX_yfa7Y&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=3f418250a489108b6d7dfe4e4ee60abd&oe=60FB64CA https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164072709_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164005668_10159594574679203_6347388532427347427_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=jr4XO4IW-rEAX-NAEA8&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=53909ec266de1dff59d3bba3e1e19919&oe=60FB063D https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164005668_1... https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164045289_10159594575179203_1420688379258392817_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=6bxIGxK31BUAX9g-Vbn&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=97e5a1441f40482e77a3393e7111bd7e&oe=60FAACFA https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/164045289_1...
- uhhyeahdude 5y ago
  Thank you. What a load of infomercial buzzword nonsense. The last part about some “further research and experience” showing even better results if the product is worn all the time is especially galling.
  - injidup 5y ago
    But one should look into Darsch Scientific if you want to get deeper into how this is all organised. https://www.dartsch-scientific.com/en/ https://www.dartsch-scientific.com/en/ they have produced papers for powerinsole and are used by other companies in the magnetic magic industry to provide a veneer of scientific credibility. For example https://waveguard.com/en/studies/ https://waveguard.com/en/studies/
    - janekm 5y ago
      Kind of hilarious how they submitted what looks like a passive coil for FCC certification ;)
- ineedasername 5y ago
  They had me at the work "power insole". Though I guess not in a good way. I expect a fairly meticulous definition of terms. If a piece of research sets off my marketing-BS sensors this early, it's usually all downhill from there.
- yarcob 5y ago
  Somehow I'm not surprised the University of Salzburg is involved. I remember a "less than stellar" experience with them that I was tangentially involved with. It involved a research project that they stopped funding, but didn't want to let go. The only researcher who continued to work on the project wanted to take the project to a different institution where the project could get funding, but Uni Salzburg refused and said it's their project. They would rather have the project be abandoned than let it thrive somewhere else. If their name wasn't on the project anymore, they would rather have it die. And not to forget, Uni Salzburg was also home to our most famous case of scientific misconduct where Robert Schwarzenbacher fabricated measurements using simulation software. The handling of that case was also interesting (they terminated his employment after verifying the accusations of fraud, but one guy from the union tried to convince someone from HR to delay some paperwork so they could later challenge the termination... crazy stuff)
javajosh 5y ago
"Naming and shaming" comes with risk - probably a lot more risk than upside. The risk is that the parties get something actionable, kind of like "probable cause" in criminal cases. The upside is maybe a small effect on a few HN minds that might remember this when considering this Uni's reputation. The other risk is that it's an act that can easily be abused. It is very easy to level charges against someone without proof; somehow we tend to believe the first salvo (myself included). In this case it sounds relatively straight-forward, but it really is irresponsible to take a stranger's word for it. So, if you really care, you might reach out to the OP and get the details. That eliminates the downside risk to the OP and acts as a shibboleth that ensure only people that actually care enough to look into it know the details.
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  Yes, that is why you would expect their claim to be corroborated with (even circumstantial) evidence when dropping names.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dcow 5y ago
  It also might potentially identify the person posting the comments which if pseudonymity is important might contribute to the calculus.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    For a second I considered that I was arguing the same as a spook trying to unmask

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dqpb 5y ago

Can you be sued for asking questions?

Ajay-p 5y ago
IANAL but my gut tells me no, unless you're in a place like Russia, North Korea, China, most of the Middle East, parts of Africa and Latin America, and some parts of the former Soviet Bloc. In western nations, you might get arrested for asking questions if it upsets the powers that be and they deem you a nuisance.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  In UK you have a chance to end up with a "hate crime" if you don't follow the official line of (no)thinking(with a low change of being arrested). Pretty crazy stuff going on lately(past few years).
  - peteretep 5y ago
    Are you confused that a “question” can be a hate crime? Seems pretty straight-forward to me?
    - ghoward 5y ago
      Asking "What's your birth sex?" might end up being a "hate crime" with the way things are going.
      - AlexMoffat 5y ago
        For what possible reason are you asking that question of anyone?
        kxkdkkf 5y ago
        Well, maybe you own a waxing salon that does Brazilian waxes and you're Muslim and don't believe you should see or be in contact with male genitalia besides that of your husband. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv > In 2018, Yaniv filed discrimination complaints with the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal against multiple waxing salons alleging that they refused to provide genital waxing to her because she is transgender.[15][16] Yaniv's case was the first major case of alleged transgender discrimination in retail in Canada.[17] Yaniv was seeking as much as $15,000 in damages from each beautician.[18] In their defence, estheticians said they lacked training on waxing male genitalia and they were not comfortable doing so for personal or religious reasons.[19] They further argued that being transgender was not the issue for them, rather having male genitalia was.[20] Yaniv rejected the claim that special training in waxing male genitalia was necessary,[21] and during the hearings equated the denial of the service to neo-Nazism.[22][16] Respondents were typically working from home, were non-white,[23] and were immigrants[24] who did not speak English. Two of the businesses were forced to shut down due to the complaints.[25] Just one example..

OriginalNebula 5y ago

Did you contact Arbeiterkammer, VKI or Peter Kolba?

injidup 5y ago
I contacted and spoke at length with the Austrian Kosumantenschutz. https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/konsumentenschutz/index.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/konsumentenschutz/ind... The product is clearly and at minimum a case of false advertising as there is nothing approaching a computer chip inside. However and though sympathetic the KS/AK said they couldn't do anything and couldn't refer me to anybody who could. I found this rather surprising.
- OriginalNebula 5y ago
  Try to contact the other two. You can reach Peter Kolba here https://www.verbraucherschutzverein.at/Kontakt/ https://www.verbraucherschutzverein.at/Kontakt/ or on Twitter even https://twitter.com/KolbaPeter https://twitter.com/KolbaPeter. He won the case against Volkswagen so if anyone can help you then him. The University of Salzburg also has a "Ethikkommission" https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniversitaere-gremien/ethikkommission/ https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniv... and "Kommission zur Sicherung guter wissenschaftlicher Praxis" https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniversitaere-gremien/kommission-neu/ https://www.plus.ac.at/service/uni-administration/gesamtuniv...
  - injidup 5y ago
    Thankyou for the tip. I'Ll look into it tomorrow.
    - OriginalNebula 5y ago
      No, thank you! Austria has a weird thing with pseudoscience scams [0][1][2] and it needs to be dealt with. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belebtes_Wasser https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belebtes_Wasser [1] The current Minister of Economy was working as an "energizer" https://www.diepresse.com/5395317/wirtschaftsministerin-schrambock-war-energetikerin https://www.diepresse.com/5395317/wirtschaftsministerin-schr... [2] During the construction of a hospital in Vienna, an "energetic" ring was built around the construction site for 95000 Euro. https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000076199184/krankenhaus-wien-nord-95-000-euro-fuer-energetischen-schutzring https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000076199184/krankenhaus-w... among others

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

I have a personal philosophy on most health oriented fads: if someone is actively trying to sell something, it's snake oil. Too many people are looking for everlasting life that they're okay with being swindled in the pursuit of it. Naive enough to believe that people are honest when promoting products they're were paid to promote.

bserge 5y ago
You can pair it with: if it works, it's controlled. Meaning you can't get it without prescription and have to go through the tortures of a health "care" system.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  This needs to end. I would take a pharmaceutical/drug related test (administered through the state), and it could be comprehensive; If I could renew my long term prescriptions. The pharmacist wants to see a blood panel before refilling, fine, I should be able to order one. (Only on long term medications (Blood pressure, diabetes, and most psychiatric drugs within reason) , and never antibiotics)
  - bluGill 5y ago
    While I agree with the sentiment, anyone on long term medication needs regular monitors by a doctor anyway. If you are only 25 this won't make sense, but by the time you get to 50 you need regular checkups for lots of things that are best caught early. I've lost enough family to colon cancer (spouse of a second cousin - can I even claim him as family?), and several others are only alive now because their cancer was caught in time. Then there is heart problems which again are best treated before the heart attack (if possible) - I just named the two most common killers of old people that you can be sure is in your family and coming to get you in the future (I know of exceptions - genetic disorders that will kill at 50 or so), but regular doctors visit can hold off.
    - hellbannedguy 5y ago

robomartin 5y ago

This is one of the problems I have with the absolute freak show that climate science/global-warming/saving-the-planet has become. It is, at a minimum, a triangle of bad actors with one corner being politicians --fear-based vote harvesting--, the second being business --jump on the bandwagon and print money...facilitated by politicians who want votes in exchange for fear mongering-- and, finally, religious-based detractors --using the best ignorance can offer in order to advanced humanity. You combine these three factors (and likely a few more) and the entire thing is a rotten stinking mess that exists on a binary state between religious deniers and religious zealots. What's a researcher to do? Tell the truth? Ha! Only if you want your career completely destroyed as well as never seeing even a hint of a grant. Going against these forces is a sure path to having more PhD's driving taxis. I have to say, I have become very cynical about what we call "science" these days. It seems you have to be very guarded about accepting anything you are told, because the forces at play could be beyond anyone's imagination in scale, breath and reach. The problem is that the general voting public is ill-equipped to take an intellectual stab at what they are being told, which means they are easily duped and herded like cattle in and direction that might be of benefit to the puppet masters in politics.

SubiculumCode 5y ago
Are you a scientist?
- robomartin 5y ago
  > Are you a scientist? How is that relevant to my comment?
  - SubiculumCode 5y ago
    You suggest how scientists can act, their motivations, their freedom to disagree with the status quo, or those higher up the ladder in their field etc. You suggest how scientists will lose grants if they produce inconvenient science, etc etc. So I ask again. Are you a scientist? Have you written a grant application? Have you been punished? I AM a scientist, and I have never seen this hypothetical world.

menzoic 5y ago

It seems well intentioned, but I'm not surprised at all about the outcome. I don't think you can expect the institution to implicate themselves like that. You have to realize that preventing legal and financial liabilities is the #1 priority for institutions. Unfortunately this includes when they are wrong. Even if the employees are "good" their lawyers will advise them against providing any details like that and most are afraid of retaliation. Anyone asking questions like that is the enemy to them. This type of behavior is bad for society but fully expected giving the incentives and consequnces of telling the truth.

nixpulvis 5y ago
So what should be done? Hire your own lawyers to go after them pro bono? Write an article and send it to the papers? This kind of thing needs to be shamed and punished. While I agree that the institutions can be expected to cover there ass, there must be a course of action.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Monies paid for students education should be conditioned on not being skeevy and unethical. Basically just arrange the penalties such that outright fraud is effectively the death penalty for the institution and lesser malfeasance is still financially disastrous. Wait for one really good case and let the papers instead discuss how a century old institution collapsed.
- h0l0cube 5y ago
  We just need a 'Yelp for research institutions'. Perhaps there already exists a global register tracking reputation like this? If so it needs to be visible (particularly to the press) and be properly vetted to have real consequence
  - zentiggr 5y ago
    Wow... pick an already known to be basically unethical organization as a possible solution to unethical behavior. Not that there's any way in our current culture to assemble a truly impartial reputation tracker, but surely we can do better than Yelp.

rob_c 5y ago

I get you wouldn't want to name the institute, but that is shocking.

injidup 5y ago
It's all on the public record anyway so. https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie-der-universitat-salzburg https://shop.powerinsole.com/en/blogs/news/doppelblindstudie... https://uni-salzburg.elsevierpure.com/de/projects/der-einfluss-des-einlage-pads-powerinsole-auf-die-hauttemperatur- https://uni-salzburg.elsevierpure.com/de/projects/der-einflu...
- rob_c 5y ago
  Ouch. OK I'll start by saying I don't know the full details of the study. But those results and plots scream of PR to someone who works with data analysis for a living

Traf444 5y ago

From what I perceive one of the problems is funding. This is not strictly related to what you write and more about research in general, but most researchers seem to avoid submitting negative results. Disproving something can be just as important as proving something, but it is seen as a failure in most cases and can negatively impact your future funding. This leads some researchers to just hide their "failures" and some go as far as doctoring the results.

fock 5y ago

I have encountered a similar thing, with a university professor somehow supporting the finding that esoteric stickers are having an effect on patients, because they block EMF: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00190/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.0019... – this is bullshit (up to the measurement equipment supplied by the German EHS-community). I think at least the university should reprimand this people, how did you get in contact with the people threatening to sue? As I'm currently a grad student (in an unrelated field) I guess I could have some fun pushing this as academic discourse.

injidup 5y ago
Those threatening to sue were the founders of the company Powerinsole. They made contact via their lawyers. From the university I just had an ugly phone call with a senior administrator who suggested that if I ever contacted her again the police would be called.

jacquesm 5y ago

I've recently come across a 'for pay' report from a university as well that had holes in it the size of which you could drive a truck through, which was also used to establish claims of efficacy that were off the scale. This is probably quite common, and I really wonder why universities would lend their name to this kind of practice.

blagie 5y ago

MIT response (at least if PI is well-connected): Intimidation, NDA, non-disparage. Plenty of fraudulent information comes out of MIT. I'm pretty sure that's common to many of the elites. You don't get to be elite by being honest. Schools one tier down (e.g. large state schools) tend to be a lot better, but they're declining too.

adminscoffee 5y ago

this actually happens far to often with enough universities to make me uncomfortable. a lot of universities lack funding, even after government aid, which by the way influences what universities teach to a degree as well. i would love to see more transparency regarding funding with regards to scientific studies