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China has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. Russia has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. North

by cs702 5y ago

China has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. Russia has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. North Korea has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. And yes, the US and quite a few European states -- and many other countries -- have also been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states[a]. All these governments are playing with explosives: The right spark at the wrong place at the wrong time can start a fire. Seemingly "minor" incidents have triggered wars in the past.[b] -- [a] Including via highly-targeted malware such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet [b] For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859) , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Fran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Fran... -- to name a few off the top of my head.

matheusmoreira 5y ago
Interesting to see the USA complaining about the cyberwarfare activities of other countries. As if it didn't have an entire government agency and even military branches dedicated to nothing but this.
- adventured 5y ago
  Is there any evidence the US has directed the intentional sabotage of critical energy providers and food providers in Russia or China in recent years? Russia appears to be waging an all-out cyber war against the US at this point. Putin admitted as much in the hour-long interview with NBC a month ago. He declared as openly as he possibly could have that the US would be targeted until it came to the negotiating table (they want sanctions etc. removed in exchange for stopping the attacks). So far the US appears to have been exceptionally reserved in its response, given it's a clear declaration of war by Russia to be intentionally targeting critical US infrastructure with attacks.
  - clydethefrog 5y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Olympic_Games https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Olympic_Games
    - eigenket 5y ago
      Why when asked about "sabotage of critical energy providers and food providers in Russia or China" do you reply with sabotage of something in Iran which is neither an energy nor food provider?
    - ruggeri 5y ago
      Sibbling comment is correct that this is an attack on a military research project, not civilian infrastructure. Thus non-responsive to the original request. Perhaps a better (but also possibly fictional) example is sabotage of the Soviet trans-Siberian gas pipeline in 1983. Certainly there appears to have been a US suggestion to surreptitiously provide the Soviet Union with compromised technology it was seeking in the West. But it's not clear whether compromised technology was provided, or whether the US caused the pipeline explosion. Here is one (controversial) source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss I wasn't going to comment at all, since the US does a lot of - ahem - "disruption" throughout the world. However, I'm not aware that the US does a lot of civilian infrastructure attacks outside of active military theatres. If true: it's a notable/interesting fact. But I'm also not sure that civilian infrastructure attacks are further beyond the pale than rendition, bombing, arms sales, embargoes, et cetera. I worry that we in the States are more sensitive to infrastructure attacks because (1) it's a weapon readily available to our national adversaries and (2) for the first time, we are the victims.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    The USA has sabotaged everyone. They have compromised everyone's security. They spy on everyone, even their own citizens. Domestic law enforcement agencies actively exploit vulnerabilities in software. The USA has satellites violating the airspace of sovereign nations, imaging them and collecting all of their communications. They're so active on these fronts that it's comical to see them complaining about other countries trying to do anything.
- cronix 5y ago
  And I'd bet an awful lot of these attacks are using the very same tools that the NSA created and left on a wide open AWS server, which was discovered, and downloaded, and spread all over the planet by the "shadow brokers" group for anyone to use how they see fit. They even included handy dandy user manuals. Chickens coming home to roost.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Brokers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Brokers
JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
If a seemingly insignificant issue is enough to start a war, perhaps the problems run deeper than the tipping point trigger issue.
- MinorTom 5y ago
  I have to disagree, in todays internet-connected world cyber attacks are not insignificant. It is not inconceivable for an large-scale attack to e.g. turn off an entire countries' electricity distribution, and that's more than most traditional weapons ever could do.

by cs702 5y ago

matheusmoreira 5y ago

Interesting to see the USA complaining about the cyberwarfare activities of other countries. As if it didn't have an entire government agency and even military branches dedicated to nothing but this.

adventured 5y ago
Is there any evidence the US has directed the intentional sabotage of critical energy providers and food providers in Russia or China in recent years? Russia appears to be waging an all-out cyber war against the US at this point. Putin admitted as much in the hour-long interview with NBC a month ago. He declared as openly as he possibly could have that the US would be targeted until it came to the negotiating table (they want sanctions etc. removed in exchange for stopping the attacks). So far the US appears to have been exceptionally reserved in its response, given it's a clear declaration of war by Russia to be intentionally targeting critical US infrastructure with attacks.
- clydethefrog 5y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Olympic_Games https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Olympic_Games
  - eigenket 5y ago
    Why when asked about "sabotage of critical energy providers and food providers in Russia or China" do you reply with sabotage of something in Iran which is neither an energy nor food provider?
  - ruggeri 5y ago
    Sibbling comment is correct that this is an attack on a military research project, not civilian infrastructure. Thus non-responsive to the original request. Perhaps a better (but also possibly fictional) example is sabotage of the Soviet trans-Siberian gas pipeline in 1983. Certainly there appears to have been a US suggestion to surreptitiously provide the Soviet Union with compromised technology it was seeking in the West. But it's not clear whether compromised technology was provided, or whether the US caused the pipeline explosion. Here is one (controversial) source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss I wasn't going to comment at all, since the US does a lot of - ahem - "disruption" throughout the world. However, I'm not aware that the US does a lot of civilian infrastructure attacks outside of active military theatres. If true: it's a notable/interesting fact. But I'm also not sure that civilian infrastructure attacks are further beyond the pale than rendition, bombing, arms sales, embargoes, et cetera. I worry that we in the States are more sensitive to infrastructure attacks because (1) it's a weapon readily available to our national adversaries and (2) for the first time, we are the victims.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  The USA has sabotaged everyone. They have compromised everyone's security. They spy on everyone, even their own citizens. Domestic law enforcement agencies actively exploit vulnerabilities in software. The USA has satellites violating the airspace of sovereign nations, imaging them and collecting all of their communications. They're so active on these fronts that it's comical to see them complaining about other countries trying to do anything.
cronix 5y ago
And I'd bet an awful lot of these attacks are using the very same tools that the NSA created and left on a wide open AWS server, which was discovered, and downloaded, and spread all over the planet by the "shadow brokers" group for anyone to use how they see fit. They even included handy dandy user manuals. Chickens coming home to roost.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Brokers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Brokers

JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago

If a seemingly insignificant issue is enough to start a war, perhaps the problems run deeper than the tipping point trigger issue.

MinorTom 5y ago
I have to disagree, in todays internet-connected world cyber attacks are not insignificant. It is not inconceivable for an large-scale attack to e.g. turn off an entire countries' electricity distribution, and that's more than most traditional weapons ever could do.