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An indication that the EU does not believe the probably American intelligence assessment that these hackers operate on behalf of the Chinese government.

krageon 5y ago
When the US was angry with Russia everything was suddenly Russians. Now they're being difficult at China, and suddenly China is the country doing everything wrong. That anyone still takes them seriously is to my mind an incredible miracle.
- apercu 5y ago
  Not suggesting at all that the USA is some benign superpower, but Russia is run by a criminal gang and China by a despot and a corrupt communist party. Note that I am a US citizen than expatriated after the second gulf war. So I am not a fan if the US gvmt, but if you think for a second that the Chinese and Russian governments AREN'T doing the things they are accused you are naive.
  - hungryhobo 5y ago
    just curious, have you visited china before? or seen first hand what's it actually like? you seem to have a very strong opinion, yet i'm not sure if they are based on reality or not.
    - elefanten 5y ago
      This is a weird comment. Gp wasn't talking about day to day life or what cities look like or anything like that. Going to China wouldn't teach you much about its government structure and governance. It's not like you can just walk in and observe party cells interacting with company leadership. You don't need to go to China to know what the government structure is, what foreign policy it conducts and what kind of economic behavior is clearly not just condoned (small scale hacking, data harvesting) but encouraged (fishing other nations' territorial waters) or even demanded (foreign business ownership requirements, IP transfer requirements) by the party. You don't need to go to China to hear reports from dissidents experiencing internment, forced labor and cultural genocide. Or to see all the broken international agreements and sovereign promises, eg the early destruction of a free Hong Kong. Or to see the territorial expansionism in salami slicing illegal maritime boundaries. Or... most importantly, to understand that a despotic cartel that doesn't believe in individual human rights is a terrible form of human organization that has terrible externalities for the whole species and planet.
    - apercu 5y ago
      I would be extremely reluctant to visit China or Russia at this point in my life. I felt differently in my 20's. And I am modestly well-travelled.
- aj3 5y ago
  Not the same thing. Solarwinds saga (the one Russians are blamed for) was 1) extremely targeted and 2) extremely sophisticated. Exchange attacks on the other hand were indiscriminate (not targeting any single country or infrastructure, just unpatched Exchange servers) and very simple (they used 0day chain, but it was three months old and likely somehow leaked as multiple groups got access to it at the same time).
mytailorisrich 5y ago
Not necessarily. What governments know based on intelligence and what they say publicly are not the same thing. If the EU thinks that making a direct public accusation would be antagonistic and would not serve their interests then they won't make one. That does not mean that they don't know what's going on, don't protect themselves, or even don't retaliate. This is effectively a PR campaign. What is its purpose? Is it a coincidence that it comes at the same time as this Pegasus/NSO story blows up?
partiallypro 5y ago
Or it is simply that the EU has turned into such a massive trading partner with China that it can't publicly deal with repercussions and just puts its head down as the US points it out. Germany does this with Russia too. Ignoring a lot of what it is doing in Ukraine to remain in the good graces to secure gas pipelines. Just because the EU doesn't publicly say it doesn't mean it isn't privately agreed upon.

krageon 5y ago

When the US was angry with Russia everything was suddenly Russians. Now they're being difficult at China, and suddenly China is the country doing everything wrong. That anyone still takes them seriously is to my mind an incredible miracle.

apercu 5y ago
Not suggesting at all that the USA is some benign superpower, but Russia is run by a criminal gang and China by a despot and a corrupt communist party. Note that I am a US citizen than expatriated after the second gulf war. So I am not a fan if the US gvmt, but if you think for a second that the Chinese and Russian governments AREN'T doing the things they are accused you are naive.
- hungryhobo 5y ago
  just curious, have you visited china before? or seen first hand what's it actually like? you seem to have a very strong opinion, yet i'm not sure if they are based on reality or not.
  - elefanten 5y ago
    This is a weird comment. Gp wasn't talking about day to day life or what cities look like or anything like that. Going to China wouldn't teach you much about its government structure and governance. It's not like you can just walk in and observe party cells interacting with company leadership. You don't need to go to China to know what the government structure is, what foreign policy it conducts and what kind of economic behavior is clearly not just condoned (small scale hacking, data harvesting) but encouraged (fishing other nations' territorial waters) or even demanded (foreign business ownership requirements, IP transfer requirements) by the party. You don't need to go to China to hear reports from dissidents experiencing internment, forced labor and cultural genocide. Or to see all the broken international agreements and sovereign promises, eg the early destruction of a free Hong Kong. Or to see the territorial expansionism in salami slicing illegal maritime boundaries. Or... most importantly, to understand that a despotic cartel that doesn't believe in individual human rights is a terrible form of human organization that has terrible externalities for the whole species and planet.
  - apercu 5y ago
    I would be extremely reluctant to visit China or Russia at this point in my life. I felt differently in my 20's. And I am modestly well-travelled.
aj3 5y ago
Not the same thing. Solarwinds saga (the one Russians are blamed for) was 1) extremely targeted and 2) extremely sophisticated. Exchange attacks on the other hand were indiscriminate (not targeting any single country or infrastructure, just unpatched Exchange servers) and very simple (they used 0day chain, but it was three months old and likely somehow leaked as multiple groups got access to it at the same time).

mytailorisrich 5y ago

Not necessarily. What governments know based on intelligence and what they say publicly are not the same thing. If the EU thinks that making a direct public accusation would be antagonistic and would not serve their interests then they won't make one. That does not mean that they don't know what's going on, don't protect themselves, or even don't retaliate. This is effectively a PR campaign. What is its purpose? Is it a coincidence that it comes at the same time as this Pegasus/NSO story blows up?

partiallypro 5y ago

Or it is simply that the EU has turned into such a massive trading partner with China that it can't publicly deal with repercussions and just puts its head down as the US points it out. Germany does this with Russia too. Ignoring a lot of what it is doing in Ukraine to remain in the good graces to secure gas pipelines. Just because the EU doesn't publicly say it doesn't mean it isn't privately agreed upon.