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It's not a feature, it's an anti-feature. Preventing people from using a device they get second-hand is actively hurting poorer economies, because they can't be

It's not a feature, it's an anti-feature. Preventing people from using a device they get second-hand is actively hurting poorer economies, because they can't benefit from all the hardware at disposal but have to dispose of it as part of global "recycling" trade (which has nothing to do with recycling and everything to do with piling up devices in areas where random folks will use dangerous chemicals to scrap parts or tiny bits of gold). And then you they go even further with stories like that: https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... Apple is doing such policy not for security, as they still own the master key to everything they produce (!), but for making sure people keep on buying new products and destroying the planet ever more. Screw this crap. EDIT: If you like to think of yourself as an eco-responsible or eco-worried person, consider how "right to repair" (or "apple/samsung locks" on the other hand of the spectrum) fit into that worldview.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
You know that they will unlock devices if you bring them to an Apple store and have proof of purchase, right?
- chii 5y ago
  which requires effort, and requires proximity to the store, requires time, etc. Why can't I, as an owner, choose to unlock the mac myself without having an external authority to "let" me?
  - ViViDboarder 5y ago
    I’m not sure what the situation for the M1 is, but as the parent comment referenced similarity to the iPhone to prevent theft, with the iPhone, the owner can unlock the device prior to resale. Is this really not possible with an M1 Mac?
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      Probably but many people forget to. Or sell the device once they haven't used it for years, and forgot the passphrase. Or give it away without leaving contact information and without thinking about the passphrase at all. I don't have statistics at hand, and overall the M1 is pretty new so it's not a problem for this device YET, but it's a serious problem i notice several times a year in my close circle.
      - simondotau 5y ago
        If a device ever enters the second hand market, it is nearly always sold soon after it is replaced. Phones contain ungodly sums of private and intimate data, most everyone knows to find the button which wipes it. If they press that button, they are prompted to disable activation lock. Activation lock has nothing to do with the phone's pin or passphrase, by the way. It's tied to an iCloud account. In the exceedingly rare instance where someone has forgotten the pin they used to unlock a device continuously for two or three years, they can disown the device by signing into icloud.com from any web browser. It's curious that you don't even know how the process works, which makes me begin to doubt that you've ever had to deal with it.
        southerntofu 5y ago
        > most everyone knows to find the button which wipes it Not talking about Apple hardware/software specifically here, but i don't see the same here. Most computers donated to associations i'm involved with was never wiped, even when coming from corporations/institutions. Sometimes though, we do receive computers without (EDIT:) harddrive, but it's still the minority. I can count on my two hands the times someone has donated to us fresh system installs (user data wiped), in over two decades. > they can disown the device by signing into icloud.com from any web browser That is, assuming you know these credentials. Most people who are not entirely locked inside the Apple walled garden create an account because they're forced to but don't care/remember actual credentials, then forget it. Same goes with other kinds of credentials, not just Apple... but only forgetting Apple (and a few others, like Samsung) credentials turns hardware into useless paperweights. Or maybe the person has diseased, or moved to a foreign country. Or maybe they've just donated the old phone in a box full of random stuff and by the time you realize the phone is locked the person has already gone and you have no way to reach them. In my personal experience, even with hardware directly donated by friends, fishing for an old passphrase more often than not raises "uuuuuuugh i gotta have this password somewhere, let me check and i'll call you back in a few days" (<-- loop here for about 3 months before you give up). > It's curious that you don't even know how the process works I pretty much know about it, thanks. I was suggesting precisely that iCloud lock be entirely removed, and instead a recovery mechanism would wipe the entire device as a privacy-protecting measure.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  If you have an Apple store nearby. If you have some "proof of purchase" they deem legit. I guess buying/acquiring from a second-hand shop isn't gonna cut it. That's a lot of ifs to simply use a device. Most devices, including pencils, bikes and cars, do not come with such troubles. Hell, even most phones and computers do not come with that.
simondotau 5y ago
Are you seriously claiming that your "right" to use my stolen phone outweighs my right to own a device that is less attractive for thieves? If you like to think of yourself as an eco-responsible or eco-worried person, consider how much conspicuous consumption occurs because stolen items tend to get replaced. Theft causes people to "...keep on buying new products and destroying the planet ever more. Screw this crap."
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > Are you seriously claiming that your "right" to use my stolen phone outweighs my right to own a device that is less attractive for thieves? If you wanna go all pedant on it, let's do... Are you seriously claiming that your "right" to own a device that cannot be used by anyone else without your explicit approval even after your death outweighs my presumption of innocence? Going around and claiming everyone who hasn't got a specific passphrase is a thief isn't helping make your case credible. You're just ridiculing yourself to people who can't afford first-hand devices.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. If you have my phone and it's still activation locked, then it was lost or stolen and should be returned to me or my next of kin. My right to own a secure device massively outweighs any desires held by criminals, or downstream beneficiaries of criminal activity.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > If you have my phone and it's still activation locked, then it was lost or stolen and should be returned to me or my next of kin. If i find your phone and it lets me know of a way to contact you, i'll probably return it to you whether there's an activation lock or not. It's a common courtesy that applies to wallets as well. > My right to own a secure device massively outweighs any desires held by criminals Your device is not in any case secure, as Apple has all the keys to break in. That's why there's an entire gray-market of icloud unlocking based on corrupting Apple workers. Since you are so much in favor of private property, i suggest you invest in a self-destructing phone, wallet and car. If anyone who doesn't match your DNA even just touches it, they should get blown up along with the device. Because that's the only way to be sure you own stuff while making everyone else's life terrible for your little material comfort. /s
simondotau 5y ago
> Preventing people from using a device they get second-hand The word "get" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Activation lock does NOT block the second-hand trade of non-stolen devices. It blocks the illegal second-hand trade of stolen devices. You are essentially advocating in favour of crime. Based on your logic, you should be demanding that vehicle immobilisers and anti-theft devices are also anti-features. We wouldn't want car thieves (ahem, sorry, "second-hand owners") to be inconvenienced either. Once your car is stolen (ahem, sorry, "sold"), anything which impedes the free use by the new "owner" is ecological vandalism. While you're at it, perhaps we should require all security safes to be openable with a paperclip, just in case you lose your keys. Otherwise people will keep buying new safes.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > The word "get" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Activation lock does NOT block the second-hand trade of non-stolen devices. It blocks the illegal second-hand trade of stolen devices. It also blocks the re-use of devices that were thrown away or given to a recycling center (because 95% of people who do this won't remember to turn off activation lock). I'm pretty sure that's what GP was referring to.
  - suction 5y ago
    How's that Apple's fault, though?
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      Apple built a system that makes discarded devices unusable. Whether the trade-off is worthwhile is debatable, but the environmental cost is real.
      - simondotau 5y ago
        The environmental cost is real either way. Without activation lock, more phones get stolen, then more phones are manufactured and sold to replace them. There are already plenty of perfectly good phones in the world; putting stolen iPhone 12 Pro devices into the second hand market lowers the value of existing devices.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

You know that they will unlock devices if you bring them to an Apple store and have proof of purchase, right?

chii 5y ago
which requires effort, and requires proximity to the store, requires time, etc. Why can't I, as an owner, choose to unlock the mac myself without having an external authority to "let" me?
- ViViDboarder 5y ago
  I’m not sure what the situation for the M1 is, but as the parent comment referenced similarity to the iPhone to prevent theft, with the iPhone, the owner can unlock the device prior to resale. Is this really not possible with an M1 Mac?
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Probably but many people forget to. Or sell the device once they haven't used it for years, and forgot the passphrase. Or give it away without leaving contact information and without thinking about the passphrase at all. I don't have statistics at hand, and overall the M1 is pretty new so it's not a problem for this device YET, but it's a serious problem i notice several times a year in my close circle.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      If a device ever enters the second hand market, it is nearly always sold soon after it is replaced. Phones contain ungodly sums of private and intimate data, most everyone knows to find the button which wipes it. If they press that button, they are prompted to disable activation lock. Activation lock has nothing to do with the phone's pin or passphrase, by the way. It's tied to an iCloud account. In the exceedingly rare instance where someone has forgotten the pin they used to unlock a device continuously for two or three years, they can disown the device by signing into icloud.com from any web browser. It's curious that you don't even know how the process works, which makes me begin to doubt that you've ever had to deal with it.
      - southerntofu 5y ago
        > most everyone knows to find the button which wipes it Not talking about Apple hardware/software specifically here, but i don't see the same here. Most computers donated to associations i'm involved with was never wiped, even when coming from corporations/institutions. Sometimes though, we do receive computers without (EDIT:) harddrive, but it's still the minority. I can count on my two hands the times someone has donated to us fresh system installs (user data wiped), in over two decades. > they can disown the device by signing into icloud.com from any web browser That is, assuming you know these credentials. Most people who are not entirely locked inside the Apple walled garden create an account because they're forced to but don't care/remember actual credentials, then forget it. Same goes with other kinds of credentials, not just Apple... but only forgetting Apple (and a few others, like Samsung) credentials turns hardware into useless paperweights. Or maybe the person has diseased, or moved to a foreign country. Or maybe they've just donated the old phone in a box full of random stuff and by the time you realize the phone is locked the person has already gone and you have no way to reach them. In my personal experience, even with hardware directly donated by friends, fishing for an old passphrase more often than not raises "uuuuuuugh i gotta have this password somewhere, let me check and i'll call you back in a few days" (<-- loop here for about 3 months before you give up). > It's curious that you don't even know how the process works I pretty much know about it, thanks. I was suggesting precisely that iCloud lock be entirely removed, and instead a recovery mechanism would wipe the entire device as a privacy-protecting measure.
southerntofu 5y ago
If you have an Apple store nearby. If you have some "proof of purchase" they deem legit. I guess buying/acquiring from a second-hand shop isn't gonna cut it. That's a lot of ifs to simply use a device. Most devices, including pencils, bikes and cars, do not come with such troubles. Hell, even most phones and computers do not come with that.

simondotau 5y ago

Are you seriously claiming that your "right" to use my stolen phone outweighs my right to own a device that is less attractive for thieves? If you like to think of yourself as an eco-responsible or eco-worried person, consider how much conspicuous consumption occurs because stolen items tend to get replaced. Theft causes people to "...keep on buying new products and destroying the planet ever more. Screw this crap."

southerntofu 5y ago
> Are you seriously claiming that your "right" to use my stolen phone outweighs my right to own a device that is less attractive for thieves? If you wanna go all pedant on it, let's do... Are you seriously claiming that your "right" to own a device that cannot be used by anyone else without your explicit approval even after your death outweighs my presumption of innocence? Going around and claiming everyone who hasn't got a specific passphrase is a thief isn't helping make your case credible. You're just ridiculing yourself to people who can't afford first-hand devices.
- simondotau 5y ago
  Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. If you have my phone and it's still activation locked, then it was lost or stolen and should be returned to me or my next of kin. My right to own a secure device massively outweighs any desires held by criminals, or downstream beneficiaries of criminal activity.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > If you have my phone and it's still activation locked, then it was lost or stolen and should be returned to me or my next of kin. If i find your phone and it lets me know of a way to contact you, i'll probably return it to you whether there's an activation lock or not. It's a common courtesy that applies to wallets as well. > My right to own a secure device massively outweighs any desires held by criminals Your device is not in any case secure, as Apple has all the keys to break in. That's why there's an entire gray-market of icloud unlocking based on corrupting Apple workers. Since you are so much in favor of private property, i suggest you invest in a self-destructing phone, wallet and car. If anyone who doesn't match your DNA even just touches it, they should get blown up along with the device. Because that's the only way to be sure you own stuff while making everyone else's life terrible for your little material comfort. /s

simondotau 5y ago

> Preventing people from using a device they get second-hand The word "get" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Activation lock does NOT block the second-hand trade of non-stolen devices. It blocks the illegal second-hand trade of stolen devices. You are essentially advocating in favour of crime. Based on your logic, you should be demanding that vehicle immobilisers and anti-theft devices are also anti-features. We wouldn't want car thieves (ahem, sorry, "second-hand owners") to be inconvenienced either. Once your car is stolen (ahem, sorry, "sold"), anything which impedes the free use by the new "owner" is ecological vandalism. While you're at it, perhaps we should require all security safes to be openable with a paperclip, just in case you lose your keys. Otherwise people will keep buying new safes.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> The word "get" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Activation lock does NOT block the second-hand trade of non-stolen devices. It blocks the illegal second-hand trade of stolen devices. It also blocks the re-use of devices that were thrown away or given to a recycling center (because 95% of people who do this won't remember to turn off activation lock). I'm pretty sure that's what GP was referring to.
- suction 5y ago
  How's that Apple's fault, though?
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    Apple built a system that makes discarded devices unusable. Whether the trade-off is worthwhile is debatable, but the environmental cost is real.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      The environmental cost is real either way. Without activation lock, more phones get stolen, then more phones are manufactured and sold to replace them. There are already plenty of perfectly good phones in the world; putting stolen iPhone 12 Pro devices into the second hand market lowers the value of existing devices.