5 ms·

Yes, a big hurdle to 'solving' climate change is that people are unwilling to make even the smallest sacrifices to solve a problem that they don't perceive as a

Yes, a big hurdle to 'solving' climate change is that people are unwilling to make even the smallest sacrifices to solve a problem that they don't perceive as affecting them directly. People refusing to wear masks during the pandemic was/is an excellent example of this.

raspyberr 5y ago
Isn't that putting the burden on people again rather than businesses a la plastic straws and plastic recycling.
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  You need to get the general populace on board. It requires a cultural revolution to culminate in political upheaval, or nothing will stop companies from externalizing costs by buying corrupt politicians.
  - bpiche 5y ago
    DangitBobby, hillposting in a natural gas thread. Amazing. Didn’t notice until after I had read several of your well informed comments. Bwahh!
clairity 5y ago
99% of mask usage was wasteful and pointless safety theater, like wearing them outdoors. similarly, most natural gas is used for power generation and industrial processes. in the US, only ~15% is used residentially, and most of that is for home heating, water heating, and clothes drying. about 1/3 of our national energy use is derived from natural gas, so you're on the order of 1% (or less) of national energy being consumed by natural gas cooking. it's a tiny problem in the energy pollution mix. we'd be much better served in this regard by focusing all our efforts on reducing carbon pollution from electricity production and transportation, which accounts for well over half of the problem, not a tiny slice like gas cooking because it's a "small sacrifice".
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  I'm reminded of fluorine chemistry. Back in the days before the Montreal Protocol you could get all sorts of halofluorocarbon starting materials for pennies because they were byproducts of CFC manufacture. But nowadays cost is prohibitive, a 100 g can of CF2Br2 will set you back hundreds because it's a specialty chemical and the paperwork is outrageous. It's a genuinely small sacrifice for most, but for a select few there's great cost.
  - willis936 5y ago
    SF6, CFCs, etc. The increased costs fixed the problem: labs now use closed loops instead of purging to atmosphere daily. Same story with helium, though not for environmental reasons. That's the system working.
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  > 99% of mask usage was wasteful and pointless safety theater, like wearing them outdoors. False. Wearing masks is a very simple, safe way to reduce spreading your infection to others [1]. Please stop spreading misinformation. 1. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-abou...
  - clairity 5y ago
    false, distancing is even simpler and more effective in a wider variety of situations, and suffers from none of the inane identitarian signalling to boot. stop spreading misinformation.
    - DangitBobby 5y ago
      Social distancing is another example of a sacrifice that people were unwilling to make. Though I wouldn't call it minor.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
_vertigo 5y ago
Many people, including myself, would be willing to make other concessions in order to keep my gas stove. Some people may not care about the difference but would prefer to keep eating a bit more red meat or something. Maybe we shouldn't approach this with blanket bans because people have different preferences and lifestyles. A ban that is easy for one person to swallow might not be so easy for another. Perhaps we could just price stuff in, so that people can decide? Although, I suppose that would just disproportionately affect poor people..?
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  For any given thing that someone will be asked to give up, someone will ask if they could give up something else they care less about instead. Eventually I'm sure they'll come after something I care about as well. I think we need to be willing to embrace a carbonless future to the greatest extent that we reasonably can. The idea of pricing things in would be good in theory, as long as the money could be reliably used for capture of carbon and other pollutants.
  - willis936 5y ago
    If carbon neutrality is the responsibility of consumers: stop buying anything that comes packaged in single-use plastics.
    - DangitBobby 5y ago
      It's everyone's responsibility. You do what you can.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
But those sacrifices are literally a rounding error compared to what large industries do. You can buy precut pineapple in a plastic jar, on a plasic plate, packed in a cardboard box covered in plastic, on a pallet, wrapped in plastic,... and on the other hand we ban plastic straws. Now we're literally burning coal in some places, heating water, running the turbines, creating electricity, losing a lot of that power in the wires, to heat a metal disk/spiral, so we can cook, and cook worse than using eg. gas directly.
mdoms 5y ago
I agree. This thread has me quite depressed. Numerous people who can't give up a minor convenience like being able to sear a capsicum over a flame in order to help save our planet.
- desine 5y ago
  How old is your phone? Your computer? Your car? Have you updated them in the last 5 years? Do you play video games? On anything newer than a PS3/Xbox One? Or are you a true environmentalist still gaming on a SNES? Watch films? Ever take a drive to clear your mind? Ever drive somewhere you could have theoretically walked, or taken public transit? Do you buy all your books pre-owned? Ever purchase the "collectors edition" of something with some included trinkets/posters/box set? Who are you to say that my mild inconveniences are more mild than yours?
  - tjr225 5y ago
    > How old is your phone? A few years old. I broke my previous one on accident. > Your computer? I got it for free from a coworker and I really don't know how old it is. I think it is from 2016 or so. > Your car? 1991. > Have you updated them in the last 5 years? No, > Do you play video games? Yes, on my computer my coworker gave me. Seems to run everything just fine, even though its 5 years old! > On anything newer than a PS3/Xbox One? Or are you a true environmentalist still gaming on a SNES? See above. > Watch films? Sometimes? > Ever take a drive to clear your mind? No. > Ever drive somewhere you could have theoretically walked, or taken public transit? Sometimes, but only in a pinch. > Do you buy all your books pre-owned? Yes. > Ever purchase the "collectors edition" of something with some included trinkets/posters/box set? No.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - desine 5y ago
      If honest, congrats on being a rare breed. Not sure what this is supposed to contribute.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

raspyberr 5y ago

Isn't that putting the burden on people again rather than businesses a la plastic straws and plastic recycling.

DangitBobby 5y ago
You need to get the general populace on board. It requires a cultural revolution to culminate in political upheaval, or nothing will stop companies from externalizing costs by buying corrupt politicians.
- bpiche 5y ago
  DangitBobby, hillposting in a natural gas thread. Amazing. Didn’t notice until after I had read several of your well informed comments. Bwahh!

clairity 5y ago

99% of mask usage was wasteful and pointless safety theater, like wearing them outdoors. similarly, most natural gas is used for power generation and industrial processes. in the US, only ~15% is used residentially, and most of that is for home heating, water heating, and clothes drying. about 1/3 of our national energy use is derived from natural gas, so you're on the order of 1% (or less) of national energy being consumed by natural gas cooking. it's a tiny problem in the energy pollution mix. we'd be much better served in this regard by focusing all our efforts on reducing carbon pollution from electricity production and transportation, which accounts for well over half of the problem, not a tiny slice like gas cooking because it's a "small sacrifice".

HarryHirsch 5y ago
I'm reminded of fluorine chemistry. Back in the days before the Montreal Protocol you could get all sorts of halofluorocarbon starting materials for pennies because they were byproducts of CFC manufacture. But nowadays cost is prohibitive, a 100 g can of CF2Br2 will set you back hundreds because it's a specialty chemical and the paperwork is outrageous. It's a genuinely small sacrifice for most, but for a select few there's great cost.
- willis936 5y ago
  SF6, CFCs, etc. The increased costs fixed the problem: labs now use closed loops instead of purging to atmosphere daily. Same story with helium, though not for environmental reasons. That's the system working.
DangitBobby 5y ago
> 99% of mask usage was wasteful and pointless safety theater, like wearing them outdoors. False. Wearing masks is a very simple, safe way to reduce spreading your infection to others [1]. Please stop spreading misinformation. 1. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-abou...
- clairity 5y ago
  false, distancing is even simpler and more effective in a wider variety of situations, and suffers from none of the inane identitarian signalling to boot. stop spreading misinformation.
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    Social distancing is another example of a sacrifice that people were unwilling to make. Though I wouldn't call it minor.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago

_vertigo 5y ago

Many people, including myself, would be willing to make other concessions in order to keep my gas stove. Some people may not care about the difference but would prefer to keep eating a bit more red meat or something. Maybe we shouldn't approach this with blanket bans because people have different preferences and lifestyles. A ban that is easy for one person to swallow might not be so easy for another. Perhaps we could just price stuff in, so that people can decide? Although, I suppose that would just disproportionately affect poor people..?

DangitBobby 5y ago
For any given thing that someone will be asked to give up, someone will ask if they could give up something else they care less about instead. Eventually I'm sure they'll come after something I care about as well. I think we need to be willing to embrace a carbonless future to the greatest extent that we reasonably can. The idea of pricing things in would be good in theory, as long as the money could be reliably used for capture of carbon and other pollutants.
- willis936 5y ago
  If carbon neutrality is the responsibility of consumers: stop buying anything that comes packaged in single-use plastics.
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    It's everyone's responsibility. You do what you can.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

But those sacrifices are literally a rounding error compared to what large industries do. You can buy precut pineapple in a plastic jar, on a plasic plate, packed in a cardboard box covered in plastic, on a pallet, wrapped in plastic,... and on the other hand we ban plastic straws. Now we're literally burning coal in some places, heating water, running the turbines, creating electricity, losing a lot of that power in the wires, to heat a metal disk/spiral, so we can cook, and cook worse than using eg. gas directly.

mdoms 5y ago

I agree. This thread has me quite depressed. Numerous people who can't give up a minor convenience like being able to sear a capsicum over a flame in order to help save our planet.

desine 5y ago
How old is your phone? Your computer? Your car? Have you updated them in the last 5 years? Do you play video games? On anything newer than a PS3/Xbox One? Or are you a true environmentalist still gaming on a SNES? Watch films? Ever take a drive to clear your mind? Ever drive somewhere you could have theoretically walked, or taken public transit? Do you buy all your books pre-owned? Ever purchase the "collectors edition" of something with some included trinkets/posters/box set? Who are you to say that my mild inconveniences are more mild than yours?
- tjr225 5y ago
  > How old is your phone? A few years old. I broke my previous one on accident. > Your computer? I got it for free from a coworker and I really don't know how old it is. I think it is from 2016 or so. > Your car? 1991. > Have you updated them in the last 5 years? No, > Do you play video games? Yes, on my computer my coworker gave me. Seems to run everything just fine, even though its 5 years old! > On anything newer than a PS3/Xbox One? Or are you a true environmentalist still gaming on a SNES? See above. > Watch films? Sometimes? > Ever take a drive to clear your mind? No. > Ever drive somewhere you could have theoretically walked, or taken public transit? Sometimes, but only in a pinch. > Do you buy all your books pre-owned? Yes. > Ever purchase the "collectors edition" of something with some included trinkets/posters/box set? No.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - desine 5y ago
    If honest, congrats on being a rare breed. Not sure what this is supposed to contribute.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]