5 ms·

Is AppJet the next big web framework?

19 points by Raphael 18y ago

falsestprophet 18y ago
Not while they insert a 'Powered by AppJet' tag on every page
- netcan 18y ago
  I don't think you have to. http://appjet.com/docs/faq http://appjet.com/docs/faq
mrtron 18y ago
I always find the confusion between platform and framework annoying. "web platforms have to be free and open. LAMP is the reigning king. Ruby on Rails and Django are the up-and-coming challengers." LAMP is Linux/Apache/Mysql/PHP, which is a platform. Django/RoR are frameworks for their respective languages, and still use Linux/Apache/Mysql or similar.
- Hexstream 18y ago
  A platform is an "environment" you build a system on, so a framework is also a platform...
  - ed 18y ago
    No, a platform consists of everything below your application logic. Think hardware, i/o abstractions, etc. A framework, on the other hand, assists in the development of an application, typically independent of the platform it runs on.
    - Hexstream 18y ago
      There are multiple possible definitions of "platform", it just happens that I use a more inclusive one while you use a more restrictive one. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_%28computing%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_%28computing%29: In computing, a platform describes some sort of hardware architecture or software framework (including application frameworks), that allows software to run. edit: Isn't a good part of a framework below your application logic?
      - mrtron 18y ago
        Comparing LAMP to Django/RoR is comparing apples to oranges. It is like comparing Windows and TCP/IP.
        Raphael 18y ago
        True. But there isn't one dominant PHP framework and a lot of people don't use a formal one or just kind of roll their own.
        sunkencity 18y ago
        Winsock trumpet!
cypress-hill 18y ago
the argument for appjet, that the bondage of javascript-on-the-client should be mirrored by javascript-on-the-server, is a false consistency i for one will never embrace. instead i turn the dichotomy around and ask why the choice on the server cannot be mirrored on the client. i don't want a world with one programming language and neither should you. it creates a single point of failure....the end result likely being a non-web platform (flash, silverlight) taking over at some point when the lack of choice becomes a problem for users and developers.
marketer 18y ago
I don't know. I'd find it annoying to build a large application in javascript, but I suppose it could be done. There are some attractive alternatives like GAE and Heroku. That said, cloud services are a hot area, and there are plenty of new tools that Appjet could leverage, like S3 and couchdb.
- SwellJoe 18y ago
  I'd find it annoying to build a large application in javascript Why? It's a pretty darned powerful language. ExtJS and YUI have shown that it can work for quite large projects in an OO manner, and jQuery has shown that it can be made exceedingly concise and pretty. It's missing a lot of niceties for working with the system, which is a big negative (and one of the same reasons that Lisp, Scheme, and Smalltalk haven't had as big an impact as more recent attempts at dynamic languages like Perl, Python, and Ruby have had), but I assume that as the non-browser implementations become more popular, those problems will be addressed. I think, when all is said and done, if the committees don't manage to kill what's great about JavaScript (by, for example, bolting on more Java-style OO), it could grow to be more popular than all other dynamic languages combined. Not that I'll be switching from Perl to JavaScript for server-side work any time soon, of course.
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    I recall an add-on for Scheme where you could call Unix command line utilities and tie them together with pipes, and it all just looked like your run of the mill Scheme code. Also, there was a project to enable writing Unix style command line utilities in Smalltalk. They got the image down to ridiculous small sizes, like 45k! There's nothing about Javascript that would preclude "working with the system." Usually the biggest barrier is the culture of the development community. Really, Smalltalk never completely quit being an OS.
    - SwellJoe 18y ago
      Agreed on all counts. Culture definitely plays a big role, perhaps the biggest role.
morbidkk 18y ago
how is it different from the helma? I found helma(helma.org) quite mature. Compare http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/lor http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/lor to http://helma.org/docs/guide/framework/ http://helma.org/docs/guide/framework/ Is there anyone who has used helma extensively can comment on this?
SwellJoe 18y ago
I think it's extremely likely that JavaScript will be absolutely pervasive in applications in the coming years. I don't know whether AppJet is the One True JavaScript framework, the way Ruby on Rails has been pervasive for Ruby, but it's excellent business sense. AppJet, as long as it is a closed platform running in one place, will remain a niche player--and, based on the apps that have been built to date, it will be a "small app" niche, which probably isn't going to lead to windfall profits in the near future. But, if they open it up, and people agree it is awesome on a scale similar to RoR and Django, it'll grow their niche into something quite huge. They'll get a few competitors out of the bargain, but having a huge industry to fight over is better than having a tiny industry all to yourself. Heroku, even though they have far less exclusivity for their platform (deploying RoR can be done at many hosting providers), seems to be growing at a much more rapid clip than AppJet...and I believe Heroku actually launched later, but my history might be off a bit. Anyway, I wish them luck. I'd love to see server-side JavaScript becoming more pervasive. It's a quite nice language.
- netcan 18y ago
  "I think it's extremely likely that JavaScript will be absolutely pervasive in applications in the coming years" Why?
  - SwellJoe 18y ago
    Because it has already become a common tongue, and with rich web apps becoming the norm, it'll only increase.. It's the language pretty much everyone building web apps knows. I work predominantly in Perl (and in the past in Python), and I've tinkered with other languages. But, throughout all of that, at least for the past five years, JavaScript has been part of the job. Imagine the meeting wherein a handful of developers are tasked with choosing a language and platform for a new app. Say, four people...one likes Ruby, one likes Python, one likes PHP, and the last likes Perl (and they all agree that Java and C# are too damned verbose). Which language wins? Well, they all know JavaScript, because every web developer knows JavaScript, and they think jQuery is pretty swish...assume there's a high quality server-side environment, of course. Obviously, it's not a foregone conclusion that JavaScript will move into a position of strength on the server. It requires too many pieces to fall into place (good implementation, good libraries, good integration with web servers, etc.) for anyone to call it a done deal. But I think it'd be foolish to bet strongly against it happening.
mpstaton 18y ago
good press Aaron!
jonknee 18y ago
I'm going to go ahead and say no. AppJet has been around a year and is nearly invisible. The most popular app on AppJet gets a massive 1300 weekly users and is completely worthless (http://appjet.com/app/799084449/source http://appjet.com/app/799084449/source). Server executed JavaScript may have a future in web development, but I don't see AppJet being it.
aaroniba 18y ago
We do think AppJet will be the platform/framework of the future, but in the present it's a little early to compare the AppJet Framework with PHP, RoR, Django, etc. AppJet was designed to be easy and make it possible to write cool little web apps with a small amount of code and a small amount of knowledge. From this perspective, it becomes obvious why we chose JavaScript as the server language: it reduces the number of languages you need to learn by a factor of 2. I think it's succeeding at what it does. There are lots of cool apps in the app directory, and most are <500 lines of code in a single file. Many of these apps are written by high school students who learned programming with AppJet. Some of my favorite include {pxl,outliner,files,wikijet,agglodex,dict,livescore}.appjet.net. We are working on improving the AppJet Framework to be good for large apps. We're also working a lot on our platform. (mrtron makes a good point about platform vs. framework elsewhere in this thread). One day, we'll tell the hacker news community that we think AppJet is a suitable replacement for PHP, Django, RoR, or whatever you're building your startup on. But we're not there yet. In the meantime, if you want to hack up a simple database-backed web app without worrying about hosting or setting up SQL or anything, AppJet is your platform. Or if you want to learn programming with a platform that will let you do a lot knowing only a little, AppJet is your platform.
- chrisbroadfoot 18y ago
  We do think AppJet will be the platform/framework of the future Could you elaborate on that more? Why will this platform be _the_ platform of the future?
  - aaroniba 18y ago
    The short answer is that we see problems with all the existing ones, and we think we can do better. The longer answer will be the subject of blog posts as we roll out milestones along the way.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  Why would I choose AppJet over, say, Google App Engine? I haven't used either, but they seem to advertise similar use cases. As you point out, AppJet lets me use just one programming language, whereas App Engine you're going to be using Python on the backend, Javascript in the browser. Google has a proven track record in scalability. Are there other important differences between them?
maxklein 18y ago
Nah it won't. AppJet fails on many levels 1. Nobody likes javascript. We use it because it's there, but nobody LIKES it 2. A serious lack of sexy. AppJet makes an app that is targeted at hardcore nerds. And then markets it to beginners. Let me tell you somefink - even beginner programmers want to be hardcore. They don't want 'easy' stuff. You want 'quick' or you want 'cool', but not easy. 3. No platform with eyeballs and revenue potential 4. It's a frickin closed eco-system. Each new framework or way of doing things I learn takes a huge amount of my time and effort. The value of that time and effort to me is MASSIVE. No seriously, this is like me paying you $10.000. If you want me to buy a premium product from you that costs that much, then I want to feel pampered. I want a return on this investment. AppJet has no return! No money, no credibility, no Resume relevant qualifications. 5. If AppJet becomes open source, then it needs to offer me a very clear advantage over my current django+python combo. And unless the owners learn how to market to the geeks, this is not going to happen. My conclusion: Your marketing is very wrong. Either sell to nerds or sell to internet marketers. But not this middle ground with no real defined target.

19 points by Raphael 18y ago

falsestprophet 18y ago

Not while they insert a 'Powered by AppJet' tag on every page

netcan 18y ago
I don't think you have to. http://appjet.com/docs/faq http://appjet.com/docs/faq

mrtron 18y ago

I always find the confusion between platform and framework annoying. "web platforms have to be free and open. LAMP is the reigning king. Ruby on Rails and Django are the up-and-coming challengers." LAMP is Linux/Apache/Mysql/PHP, which is a platform. Django/RoR are frameworks for their respective languages, and still use Linux/Apache/Mysql or similar.

Hexstream 18y ago
A platform is an "environment" you build a system on, so a framework is also a platform...
- ed 18y ago
  No, a platform consists of everything below your application logic. Think hardware, i/o abstractions, etc. A framework, on the other hand, assists in the development of an application, typically independent of the platform it runs on.
  - Hexstream 18y ago
    There are multiple possible definitions of "platform", it just happens that I use a more inclusive one while you use a more restrictive one. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_%28computing%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_%28computing%29: In computing, a platform describes some sort of hardware architecture or software framework (including application frameworks), that allows software to run. edit: Isn't a good part of a framework below your application logic?
    - mrtron 18y ago
      Comparing LAMP to Django/RoR is comparing apples to oranges. It is like comparing Windows and TCP/IP.
      - Raphael 18y ago
        True. But there isn't one dominant PHP framework and a lot of people don't use a formal one or just kind of roll their own.
      - sunkencity 18y ago
        Winsock trumpet!

cypress-hill 18y ago

the argument for appjet, that the bondage of javascript-on-the-client should be mirrored by javascript-on-the-server, is a false consistency i for one will never embrace. instead i turn the dichotomy around and ask why the choice on the server cannot be mirrored on the client. i don't want a world with one programming language and neither should you. it creates a single point of failure....the end result likely being a non-web platform (flash, silverlight) taking over at some point when the lack of choice becomes a problem for users and developers.

marketer 18y ago

I don't know. I'd find it annoying to build a large application in javascript, but I suppose it could be done. There are some attractive alternatives like GAE and Heroku. That said, cloud services are a hot area, and there are plenty of new tools that Appjet could leverage, like S3 and couchdb.

SwellJoe 18y ago
I'd find it annoying to build a large application in javascript Why? It's a pretty darned powerful language. ExtJS and YUI have shown that it can work for quite large projects in an OO manner, and jQuery has shown that it can be made exceedingly concise and pretty. It's missing a lot of niceties for working with the system, which is a big negative (and one of the same reasons that Lisp, Scheme, and Smalltalk haven't had as big an impact as more recent attempts at dynamic languages like Perl, Python, and Ruby have had), but I assume that as the non-browser implementations become more popular, those problems will be addressed. I think, when all is said and done, if the committees don't manage to kill what's great about JavaScript (by, for example, bolting on more Java-style OO), it could grow to be more popular than all other dynamic languages combined. Not that I'll be switching from Perl to JavaScript for server-side work any time soon, of course.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  I recall an add-on for Scheme where you could call Unix command line utilities and tie them together with pipes, and it all just looked like your run of the mill Scheme code. Also, there was a project to enable writing Unix style command line utilities in Smalltalk. They got the image down to ridiculous small sizes, like 45k! There's nothing about Javascript that would preclude "working with the system." Usually the biggest barrier is the culture of the development community. Really, Smalltalk never completely quit being an OS.
  - SwellJoe 18y ago
    Agreed on all counts. Culture definitely plays a big role, perhaps the biggest role.

morbidkk 18y ago

how is it different from the helma? I found helma(helma.org) quite mature. Compare http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/lor http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/lor to http://helma.org/docs/guide/framework/ http://helma.org/docs/guide/framework/ Is there anyone who has used helma extensively can comment on this?

SwellJoe 18y ago

I think it's extremely likely that JavaScript will be absolutely pervasive in applications in the coming years. I don't know whether AppJet is the One True JavaScript framework, the way Ruby on Rails has been pervasive for Ruby, but it's excellent business sense. AppJet, as long as it is a closed platform running in one place, will remain a niche player--and, based on the apps that have been built to date, it will be a "small app" niche, which probably isn't going to lead to windfall profits in the near future. But, if they open it up, and people agree it is awesome on a scale similar to RoR and Django, it'll grow their niche into something quite huge. They'll get a few competitors out of the bargain, but having a huge industry to fight over is better than having a tiny industry all to yourself. Heroku, even though they have far less exclusivity for their platform (deploying RoR can be done at many hosting providers), seems to be growing at a much more rapid clip than AppJet...and I believe Heroku actually launched later, but my history might be off a bit. Anyway, I wish them luck. I'd love to see server-side JavaScript becoming more pervasive. It's a quite nice language.

netcan 18y ago
"I think it's extremely likely that JavaScript will be absolutely pervasive in applications in the coming years" Why?
- SwellJoe 18y ago
  Because it has already become a common tongue, and with rich web apps becoming the norm, it'll only increase.. It's the language pretty much everyone building web apps knows. I work predominantly in Perl (and in the past in Python), and I've tinkered with other languages. But, throughout all of that, at least for the past five years, JavaScript has been part of the job. Imagine the meeting wherein a handful of developers are tasked with choosing a language and platform for a new app. Say, four people...one likes Ruby, one likes Python, one likes PHP, and the last likes Perl (and they all agree that Java and C# are too damned verbose). Which language wins? Well, they all know JavaScript, because every web developer knows JavaScript, and they think jQuery is pretty swish...assume there's a high quality server-side environment, of course. Obviously, it's not a foregone conclusion that JavaScript will move into a position of strength on the server. It requires too many pieces to fall into place (good implementation, good libraries, good integration with web servers, etc.) for anyone to call it a done deal. But I think it'd be foolish to bet strongly against it happening.

mpstaton 18y ago

good press Aaron!

jonknee 18y ago

I'm going to go ahead and say no. AppJet has been around a year and is nearly invisible. The most popular app on AppJet gets a massive 1300 weekly users and is completely worthless (http://appjet.com/app/799084449/source http://appjet.com/app/799084449/source). Server executed JavaScript may have a future in web development, but I don't see AppJet being it.

aaroniba 18y ago

We do think AppJet will be the platform/framework of the future, but in the present it's a little early to compare the AppJet Framework with PHP, RoR, Django, etc. AppJet was designed to be easy and make it possible to write cool little web apps with a small amount of code and a small amount of knowledge. From this perspective, it becomes obvious why we chose JavaScript as the server language: it reduces the number of languages you need to learn by a factor of 2. I think it's succeeding at what it does. There are lots of cool apps in the app directory, and most are <500 lines of code in a single file. Many of these apps are written by high school students who learned programming with AppJet. Some of my favorite include {pxl,outliner,files,wikijet,agglodex,dict,livescore}.appjet.net. We are working on improving the AppJet Framework to be good for large apps. We're also working a lot on our platform. (mrtron makes a good point about platform vs. framework elsewhere in this thread). One day, we'll tell the hacker news community that we think AppJet is a suitable replacement for PHP, Django, RoR, or whatever you're building your startup on. But we're not there yet. In the meantime, if you want to hack up a simple database-backed web app without worrying about hosting or setting up SQL or anything, AppJet is your platform. Or if you want to learn programming with a platform that will let you do a lot knowing only a little, AppJet is your platform.

chrisbroadfoot 18y ago
We do think AppJet will be the platform/framework of the future Could you elaborate on that more? Why will this platform be _the_ platform of the future?
- aaroniba 18y ago
  The short answer is that we see problems with all the existing ones, and we think we can do better. The longer answer will be the subject of blog posts as we roll out milestones along the way.
jimbokun 18y ago
Why would I choose AppJet over, say, Google App Engine? I haven't used either, but they seem to advertise similar use cases. As you point out, AppJet lets me use just one programming language, whereas App Engine you're going to be using Python on the backend, Javascript in the browser. Google has a proven track record in scalability. Are there other important differences between them?

maxklein 18y ago

Nah it won't. AppJet fails on many levels 1. Nobody likes javascript. We use it because it's there, but nobody LIKES it 2. A serious lack of sexy. AppJet makes an app that is targeted at hardcore nerds. And then markets it to beginners. Let me tell you somefink - even beginner programmers want to be hardcore. They don't want 'easy' stuff. You want 'quick' or you want 'cool', but not easy. 3. No platform with eyeballs and revenue potential 4. It's a frickin closed eco-system. Each new framework or way of doing things I learn takes a huge amount of my time and effort. The value of that time and effort to me is MASSIVE. No seriously, this is like me paying you $10.000. If you want me to buy a premium product from you that costs that much, then I want to feel pampered. I want a return on this investment. AppJet has no return! No money, no credibility, no Resume relevant qualifications. 5. If AppJet becomes open source, then it needs to offer me a very clear advantage over my current django+python combo. And unless the owners learn how to market to the geeks, this is not going to happen. My conclusion: Your marketing is very wrong. Either sell to nerds or sell to internet marketers. But not this middle ground with no real defined target.